Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

In theory they can also change the rules and say properly 'restored' cards can still be a PSA 6 etc

You mean change their definition of what they consider unacceptable alterations? I suppose, but it's hard to believe they will given 25+ years of operating under the same definition.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You mean change their definition of what they consider unacceptable alterations? I suppose, but it's hard to believe they will given 25+ years of operating under the same definition.

Rules do change. There may be small print to read that may say that as well, who knows. When its about subjectivity there is always much more leeway...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I hear you, Jeffery has still never answered if his client PWCC is going to send out gift baskets to their supporters like Mastro did. I know I offered my support IF the gift basket was nice enough.

I sent mine back

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if the card has gone down in value does PWCC only owe a partial refund?

Possibly, depends on how the lawyering goes... if it is proven that PWCC does guarantee a profit, then the decision becomes what is reasonable???

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Possibly, depends on how the lawyering goes... if it is proven that PWCC does guarantee a profit, then the decision becomes what is reasonable???

PWCC to me has never Guaranteed a profit on their cards. Again it’s just an opinion. It’s marketing.

Still People hate on PWCC I’m not saying they’re saints, not by any stretch!

What I’m saying is if PSA was doing their job correctly and honestly we wouldn’t have these numerous issues. PSA is a Central Figure Of Most of the Problems In fact they’re the Major Facilitator of 99% of all Altered Slabbed Cards. I hope some serious lawyering turns the tables and throws this back on their asses bigly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PWCC to me has never Guaranteed a profit on their cards. Again it’s just an opinion. It’s marketing.

Still People hate on PWCC I’m not saying they’re saints, not by any stretch!

What I’m saying is if PSA was doing their job correctly and honestly we wouldn’t have these numerous issues. PSA is a Central Figure Of Most of the Problems In fact they’re the Major Facilitator of 99% of all Altered Slabbed Cards. I hope some serious lawyering turns the tables and throws this back on their asses bigly.

Not 99 percent. There are some major modern card doctors who have used Beckett heavily.

[japhi]

Correct, tens of thousands of trimmed modern sitting in BGS slabs including some of the hobby’s highest profile cards.

[Johnny630]

My point is throw it back on all the TPG’s whom have outed altered cards slabbed with grades In their holders... PSA Beckett and SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

2020 PSA Service Pricing and Submission Update


Hello Hobby Enthusiasts,
On behalf of the staff at PSA, thank you for your incredible support during 2019. The hobby continues to grow as more and more people either discover the joy of collecting for the first time or return to the hobby of their youth.
As you likely know, PSA has been busy. Thanks to your support, we eclipsed four milestones this calendar year. The first three were surpassing the 33 million, 34 million and 35 million collectibles certified thresholds. The fourth was authenticating and grading the 1,000,000th Pokémon card in our history.
All the while, we have been working diligently to expand our capacity to better service the demand for PSA services. As our milestone achievements indicate, we have had good success in this effort. That said, we are still building upon our foundation to expand even further.
Looking ahead to 2020, PSA has left its core service levels and pricing largely unchanged. We have added two new service levels and adjusted some declared value parameters. Visit this webpage to review the changes. These changes will go into effect on January 1.
We have come a long way in 2019, backed by an effort to listen to your feedback and improve your submission experience with PSA. Here is a quick overview of some these improvements:
• Turnaround Time Updates – updated each Monday using actual order processing data from the week prior, collectors can access current estimated lead times.
• New Order Tracking Bar – our new order tracker provides you with detailed, step-by-step updates for your submission as it moves through the PSA system.
• Online Label Correction Service – using our website, customers now can initiate a label correction before the collectible leaves our facility.
• Set Registry Achievement Program – earn virtual rewards and receive encouragement as you collect and compete on the PSA Set Registry.
PSA also expanded its Customer Service and Sales Account Management teams and added resources to service our East Coast and Japanese collecting bases. Looking ahead to 2020, expect more improvements to our customer service, turnaround times and holder security.
At PSA, our goal is to lead the hobby through accurate, impartial third-party grading and free, educational collecting content. I hope we have been able to deliver these benefits to your own personal collection this year.
Enjoy Collecting (in 2019, 2020 and beyond),

Steve Sloan
President, PSA

[Johnny630]

Teflon !!!

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Teflon !!!

Maybe. But considering this just broke and June and typical turn times are 100 days, it shouldn’t be surprising that things are BAU. Why wouldn’t they be?

We tend to think of companies like PSA as being big, because they are big in our hobby. Which is actually small.

All that said, John Kapon / Acker Merril sold 100s of millions in fake wine and are still leaders in their space so who knows. Wine collectors are as dense and as immature as card collectors, so maybe nothing does come of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Deny, minimize, contain, reassure, deflect.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Deny, minimize, contain, reassure, deflect.

Absolutely +1
PSA All They Do is Win Win Win No Matter What !

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don’t answer your questions. Do I look like someone who answers to you?

Always kinda looked like Hal Chase to me...

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Now THIS smells like a class action opportunity, no?

We're just spit ballin here...
Let's Say Every PSA Cert Number was an actual person in this Class Action Law suit! And the List kept getting bigger and Bigger And BIGGER!

And then the PSA Bubble got Busted!
Well, it took like 7-10 years fir the GAI Slab to become obsolete, jus a quick thought!?

"How Long do ya think it'll take fir the PSA Slab to become extinct?"

[perezfan]

My over/under is 8 years. But wish that number was lower.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

My over/under is 8 years. But wish that number was lower.

I will take the over. This hobby is way too shady to let a few whiners on a couple forums bring down the cash cow. Anybody in for a group submission?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will take the over. This hobby is way too shady to let a few whiners on a couple forums bring down the cash cow. Anybody in for a group submission?

Over as well. I cannot see the hobby returning to a raw card model, not with the millions upon millions invested already in registry sets and other slabbed cards. And there is no meaningful competition now or on the horizon. I think PSA weathers the storm.

[Johnny630]

Over Agree with Peter for all the above reason I posted before.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And a nice sticker too.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=171

[perezfan]

Lots of cardboard missing on that one. I guess it’s not the first time Little Joe was deemed short.

What if we put a 1 in front of the 8? Would anyone here bet the under at 18?

[Jersey City Giants]

Is there a full list sorted by cert #?

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Lots of cardboard missing on that one. I guess it’s not the first time Little Joe was deemed short.

What if we put a 1 in front of the 8? Would anyone here bet the under at 18?

As long as the hobby exists as a place where large sums of money are spent on cards professional
Grading will remain a fixture. It may be a different company it may have different parameters than today but it will exist as long as big money is being spent in the hobby. If grading does it will be because a large part of the hobby dies with it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by glynparson

As long as the hobby exists as a place where large sums of money are spent on cards professional
Grading will remain a fixture. It may be a different company it may have different parameters than today but it will exist as long as big money is being spent in the hobby. If grading does it will be because a large part of the hobby dies with it.

People can talk down saying the fact no civil lawsuits have been filed mean nothing in terms of the problems of the hobby

however i am not sure how we can be discussing the closure of million dollar businesses when not even a single lawsuit has been filed. (please correct me if i am wrong as i have not checked court dockets across the country, i just assume someone would of mentioned one on this or the other forums i look at)\

Yes I know Mastro this and that so it could happen without much but this involves so many more layers and time and cards changing hands and issues for bigger disputes etc....my opinion..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by glynparson

As long as the hobby exists as a place where large sums of money are spent on cards professional
Grading will remain a fixture. It may be a different company it may have different parameters than today but it will exist as long as big money is being spent in the hobby. If grading does it will be because a large part of the hobby dies with it.

Fully agree that card grading won’t go away in our lifetimes. But it could adapt, and have a vastly different look before we kick the bucket. Perhaps it’s the way cards are graded, perhaps it’s improved methods for detecting alteration, perhaps it’s a company that spends more time analyzing the cards, perhaps it’s a company that caters to collectors rather than shareholders, perhaps they ditch number grades in favor of descriptive ones, perhaps a company will enter the fray with a different take altogether.

I’d support a TPG that could simply deem a card as being unaltered, provided they could do it effectively. I know others would as well. Maybe there’s a niche for those who don’t give a hoot about the Registry, or paying 1000 times more for a card because it “appears” to be mint. I just have a hunch that something different will come along as the “mistakes” continue to be revealed. And if the FBI does intervene, it will only serve to accelerate the process.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’d support a TPG that could simply deem a card as being unaltered, provided they could do it effectively. I know others would as well. Maybe there’s a niche for those who don’t give a hoot about the Registry, or paying 1000 times more for a card because it “appears” to be mint. I just have a hunch that something different will come along as the “mistakes” continue to be revealed. And if the FBI does intervene, it will only serve to accelerate the process.

I wish SABR would create a subsidiary that, like their current retrosheet.org website, would be basically non-profit. But the grading could ensure a stable operating stream for everything else they do, by charging nominal fees.

In terms of integrity, knowledge and respect for the history of the game and so on, they are top notch. And with their organization doing the grading without a profit motive, at minimum any mistakes made would be honest ones.

Is anyone here a member of SABR? It would be an ambitious effort, but is it something they might at least be willing to look at?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nice short sale.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=182

[JeremyW]

PWWC can't absorb all of these possible returns, can they?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

PWWC can't absorb all of these possible returns, can they?

Maybe Johnny will pitch in to try to save himself with the government.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe Johnny will pitch in to try to save himself with the government.

Who is gonna Gonna Roll First ?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

People can talk down saying the fact no civil lawsuits have been filed mean nothing in terms of the problems of the hobby

however i am not sure how we can be discussing the closure of million dollar businesses when not even a single lawsuit has been filed. (please correct me if i am wrong as i have not checked court dockets across the country, i just assume someone would of mentioned one on this or the other forums i look at)\

Yes I know Mastro this and that so it could happen without much but this involves so many more layers and time and cards changing hands and issues for bigger disputes etc....my opinion..

I don't understand why you assume people would report their legal goings on to you or this board.

[perezfan]

Just imagine if there was a way to notify all of these "winning" bidders that they paid an enormous premium for a fake PSA card?

What's been revealed to date likely represents under 2% of all the slabbed/numbered/altered cards in circulation. But what if that measly 2% were made aware of how badly they were duped? And what if that 2% all submitted for refunds? It would create enough liability to bankrupt the entire Mount Rushmore of "Bad Actors"... Johnny, Gary, Brent and Joe O.

If eBay never made their misguided decision to block identities, the sh*t would've already hit the fan.

[Johnny630]

The old squeeze play might occur on a few of these crum bums

[ALBB]

Been following this for a long time

very interesting...how many " duped" big time collectors ...who got ripped off to the tune of -?..$500-$2000 ....what have they done about it ?

Im guessing a lot of anger...maybe embarrassment ( imagine telling a loved one or friend what happened ? ) people you know who have often said to you over the years - " Dude, you crazy spending that kind of money on baseball cards ".... Do you tell them ?

Do you call PSA ( yea right ! ) and demand a full refund

Do you break the card out of the slab ( to prevent this from ever happening again ? ) ..and then stare at the $1500 mistake you made ?

Do you pretend the card is still legit....even though the proof is there ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Just imagine if there was a way to notify all of these "winning" bidders that they paid an enormous premium for a fake PSA card?

What's been revealed to date likely represents under 2% of all the slabbed/numbered/altered cards in circulation. But what if that measly 2% were made aware of how badly they were duped? And what if that 2% all submitted for refunds? It would create enough liability to bankrupt the entire Mount Rushmore of "Bad Actors"... Johnny, Gary, Brent and Joe O.

If eBay never made their misguided decision to block identities, the sh*t would've already hit the fan.

I believe that where cards are listed on the registry, the BODA guys make an effort to contact the owners.

There have also been instances where PWCC has notified winning bidders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ebay was certainly a better place where you could track what the known card doctors were buying, and you could see who was bidding stuff up.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ebay was certainly a better place where you could track what the known card doctors were buying, and you could see who was bidding stuff up.

… and you could effortlessly message both the Buyers and Sellers. I used to reach out to winning bidders to congratulate them, and sometimes offer them an instant profit if I fell asleep at the wheel. It was a very useful feature. Just imagine if eBay re-enabled that function. Thousands of fraud victims could easily be made right in no time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

… and you could effortlessly message both the Buyers and Sellers. I used to reach out to winning bidders to congratulate them, and sometimes offer them an instant profit if I fell asleep at the wheel. It was a very useful feature. Just imagine if eBay re-enabled that function. Thousands of fraud victims could easily be made right in no time.

Ebay is not interested in preventing fraud, we know that.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't understand why you assume people would report their legal goings on to you or this board.

with 1000s of cards...i would expect there would be many easy ones 'i got back my $200 bucks' etc....not a big secret...

plus others have already talked about PWCC reaching out to them.

this is a web baseball card discussion forum.....it wouldnt be unheard of for some people to share some things..

[Johnny630]

Jake what are your thoughts on this, Do think PWCC will attempt to recover damages via a large monetary civil lawsuit against PSA for all the bad cards they're buying back?
I can't see them just eating the cost of all these buy backs. All hypothetical... Prove we knew these cards were altered, we just crack and resubmit cards we believe to be under graded, we have no ties to such and such submitter's......we all have ideas on whom from the blowout discoveries.

Just wondering your thoughts?

[CuriousGeorge]

Do you seriously believe PWCC is in any position to sue PSA? Is this an early April Fools joke or do you really not understand what is going on here? PSA can break into the PWCC Vault and get caught on video and PWCC couldn’t/wouldn’t sue them.

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Jake what are your thoughts on this, Do think PWCC will attempt to recover damages via a large monetary civil lawsuit against PSA for all the bad cards they're buying back?
I can't see them just eating the cost of all these buy backs. All hypothetical... Prove we knew these cards were altered, we just crack and resubmit cards we believe to be under graded, we have no ties to such and such submitter's......we all have ideas on whom from the blowout discoveries.

Just wondering your thoughts?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Jake what are your thoughts on this, Do think PWCC will attempt to recover damages via a large monetary civil lawsuit against PSA for all the bad cards they're buying back?
I can't see them just eating the cost of all these buy backs. All hypothetical... Prove we knew these cards were altered, we just crack and resubmit cards we believe to be under graded, we have no ties to such and such submitter's......we all have ideas on whom from the blowout discoveries.

Just wondering your thoughts?

does PWCC have insurance? Or am I mis-remembering?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Do you seriously believe PWCC is in any position to sue PSA? Is this an early April Fools joke or do you really not understand what is going on here? PSA can break into the PWCC Vault and get caught on video and PWCC couldn’t/wouldn’t sue them.

Yeah i not touching his question. My viewpoints are just on these end buyers with the tainted cards and their recourse or whether they are all be taken care of or are they having problems

We thus far heard 'being addressed'

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

does PWCC have insurance? Or am I mis-remembering?

Now that would have to be the strangest insurance policy of all time.

[Johnny630]

Yes

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Now that would have to be the strangest insurance policy of all time.

Yeah, one that pays off on restitution for doing sketchy stuff...

Maybe if it's the dumbest insurance company ever.

[ALBB]

Have any Net 54 members identified themselves on the site,as having been ripped off by all this trimming/cleaning underhanded stuff ?

I guess it could be awkward/embarrassing ...but curious - have they stopped collecting ?..stopped buying from PSA ? ...stopped buying slabbed cards ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fats gets a little thinner.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=189

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fats gets a little thinner.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=189

Good ol' Fats Henry. One of my great uncles, William "Bill" Markel was a teammate of his at Washington and Jefferson College back in the day.