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These pics do not lie, and will be quite impactful if it goes to trial. The plaintiffs should have a wealth of evidence... probably more than any judge or jury could handle. |
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I'm by no means a lawyer but I'm always a little concerned about situations like this. It seems if the first bullet fired isn't well thought out, it can derail the entire effort.
Like if this lawsuit is done halfway or if there's some technical error and the case is summarily dismissed, it opens the door for PSA, PWCC, etc. to say "see, we weren't doing anything wrong - the case was dismissed" and it's business as usual for them, making the second attempt that much harder. |
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A complaint is just that, a series of allegations that can be developed, amended, discarded or supplemented as time passes. It is designed and required to put a defendant on notice of the types of conduct that Plaintiff believes comprise legally recognized claims, so that Defendant is not left guessing as to what it supposedly did wrong. It is not intended to spell out specifically each and every transgression, or comprise "proof" of each matter alleged.
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If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
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Thanks, Todd. Maybe "technicality" was a better word choice than "technical error". Either way, without getting into politics, it reminds me of a line from All the President's Men - If you shoot too high and miss, everyone feels more secure
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A. PSA Knowingly Graded Altered Cards How can one prove this?
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
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Maybe graders were told what to do or who submitted? Maybe graders knew what to do when cards were submitted in certain unique holders with markings. Start with the graders and submitters who benefited and work your way up the food chain.
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Love Ty Cobb rare items and baseball currency from the 19th Century. |
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It should be worded that PSA knowingly assigned numeric grades to altered cards. Everyone knows that they grade altered cards. Just sayin'
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... http://imageevent.com/derekgranger HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 244/342 (71.4%) 1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 114/119 (95.8%) 1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 177/180 (98.3%) |
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How can a company who bills itself as the "largest and most trusted third-party grading and authentication company in the world" and states "when you buy a PSA-graded collectible or submit an item to PSA for grading, you get the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby", plead ignorance here? If they can't identify an altered card, how can they promise what they do? A company that did that would be guilty of something, right? Or am I missing something?
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R0b G@@13t |
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Sebie |
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Where is our resident Thing #2,
"there is a lawsuit so it must mean something! "
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
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Everyone is bringing up valid points. I just hope it doesn't tarnish the hobby any more than the grading scandal already has.
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Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 |
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It seems to me, they are simply saying that they provide "the most accurately graded collectible in the hobby". This does not mean the item is 100% accurately graded; it simply means that PSA feels that they come closest to the 100% accurate threshold. PSA could have 50% accuracy over-all. If no other TPG hits the 50% mark or higher, then PSA is correct in their assertion that they are "the most accurate". Steve
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Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce. Current Wantlist: 1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back) 1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox |
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Query re: Para 54 (was PSA first?)
Was PSA the first card-grading company ?
I thought it was the SGC predecessor run by Dave Foreman "SCG" or something..... I used to have a T205 Jennings that was in their holder which was like an early SGC holder black.... -- It's not relevant to the merits of the complaint. I just wondered... Last edited by Misunderestimated; 02-13-2020 at 08:12 PM. |
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R0b G@@13t |
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The problem is, exactly how does one quantify the accuracy level of a particular TPG? Who do you go to, to accomplish it? For example, in autograph collecting, Charles Hamilton was considered the foremost authenticator in the business. In sub-areas of autograph collecting, there are certain authenticators who specialize in signatures; i.e., in astronaut autographs, Steve Zarelli is probably the #1 authenticator. In fine art, there are people who are considered the foremost experts on a particular artist, say van Gogh or Rembrandt. Who is the #1 card grader/authenticator, who could determine, to a level that is "legally sufficient" in a court of law, PSA's accuracy compared to other TPGs. Without a legally sufficient "expert witness", I just don't see PSA's claim of being the "most accurate", being a problem for them. It is essentially just their opinion. Also, to what level will a court of law require, for alleged proof that the card shown in "before" picture A, is actually the exact same card shown in "after" picture B. We all have our opinions and feelings about all the cards reported/"outed" in this ongoing scandal; but we all know that pictures can be manipulated. The same card can look completely different in scans taken with different scanners, depending on the individual scanner's settings. We also know that the card stock is not always "perfect"; there are usually defects in the stock. Printing methods used for a particular card can show recurring identical defects in a particular card; i.e., 1976 Topps George Brett & 1978 Topps Molitor/Trammell. The simple fact that two different pictures of cards that show the same perceived defect(s), show cards that have different grades, but otherwise cannot be differentiated, does not mean that the cards in the two pictures, are actually the same exact card. Steve
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Successful BST deals with eliotdeutsch, gonzo, jimivintage, Leon, lharris3600, markf31, Mrc32, sb1, seablaster, shammus, veloce. Current Wantlist: 1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back) 1910 E90-2 Gibson, Hyatt, Maddox Last edited by Steve D; 02-13-2020 at 10:31 PM. |
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A few thoughts
1 - At the very least this action will hopefully make the whole "slabgate" more visible to more people - we should all forward to local, regional and national media - some of them will pick it up.
2 - This will necessitate $$$ coming out of the pockets of some who have been lining their pockets for if nothing else their defense. 3 - Attorney question - what is the yardstick here - "preponderance of evidence", "beyond a reasonable doubt", or something else? 4 - Presuming something short of beyond a reasonable doubt - while I believe some of the accusations although true will be difficult to prove - others - not so much - The most glaring thing to me is that a company (PSA) who's underlying foundation is its self proclaimed ability to identify cards that have been altered, their charging fees to do so, customers reliance on the same and PSA's clear incompetence (in a best case scenario) in doing so! 5 - Even if some of what has been alleged is proven, it will be a good thing. |
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The 40's-some more recent date depending on the manufacturer, those fiber defects are like a fingerprint. I'd think that if someone had an altered card, physically entered as evidence (Hoping I got the term right there) And the before scan, that would be conclusive. The person who made the before scan would have no reason to add portions of the card that were never there AND to digitally fake the fiber aspects of the cardstock. Many of the earlier modern cards were serially numbered from the factory, and while the look and colors can vary, it's not likely that the amount of picture visible along an edge would change based on the scanner. That's what the before and after scans show, things like the sole of a shoe with some sliver of background between it and the edge of the card then later that shoe on the same card touching or partly cut away by the edge. And again, there's no reason for the before scan to have been faked. Some show slight corner flaws, and the after doesn't. Why would a seller add fake wear to a card they were selling? The simple answer is that they wouldn't. |
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R0b G@@13t |
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Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk |
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The defense of and excuses for PSA here are not just shocking, but I'm guessing self serving. They've rendered everyone's collection suspect by not fulfilling the promise they made to collectors...and I think a lot of people don't want to believe that.
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R0b G@@13t |
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__________________
Collecting vintage soccer Collecting pre-war baseball Collecting vintage horse racing (wanted: tobacco cards and pins) Set in progress: 1994 Upper Deck World Cup autographed Set in progress: 1938 Konig Fussball Sub set in progress: 1910-12 Sweet Caporal pins - Philadelphia Athletics - 4 of 11 complete (need: Baker, Murphy, Plank, Krause, Davis) Successful transactions: aro13 edsj commishbob jpaol99 Gonzo, abroom Brianp-beme Dboneesq Chris Counts xplainer Bobbyw8469 |
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Regarding my "before and after" comment... I was just addressing the statement made prior to my post, which referred to the air space between the cards' edges and the "bumpers". The statement opined that there are different sizes of slab openings and tolerable variances on card sizes. This was stated to rebuff/invalidate the plaintiff's "excessive air space" accusation. My "before and after" comment was referencing the change in air space between the original and altered versions of the same card. We've seen it hundreds (if not thousands) of times on Blowout.... the same cards with indisputable/identical paper fiber identifiers. These cards fit much more snugly in their original and pre-altered state. It's very easy to visually demonstrate and document these before/after differences, and there are thousands of examples that would serve as evidence. That's what I was referring to. With regard to how can one prove that PSA knowingly graded altered cads... that will be incumbent upon the plaintiff's legal team to convey. It's safe to say there's a mountain of evidence to plow through, and none of us know the inside connections or inner-workings at PSA. That is, unless someone here is a former PSA employee or a fly on the wall. But unfortunately the former employee probably has a gag order or NDA, and the fly can't speak English (other than to say Heeeeelp Me!) |
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Let's move on to some more humor, which Teddy Blind Bat won't get. I appreciate Sports Card Radio using a few of my industry nicknames and Here's a couple of bozo's in the first series! Nice Job! https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=125 Let's not forget the ring Leader BRENT MASTRO! |
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Nothing, and I mean nothing, will happen to Probstein or Brent.... They have been laughing all the way to the bank and will continue to do so (Ebay has a lot to do with this). I would also be shocked if anything comes down on PSA... There you have it
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I wonder if they'll add anything about obstruction from removing certification numbers from their online database or eliminating the ability to contact their defrauded buyers by removing accounts of ne'er-do-wells like me who criticize them online.
I heard from another board member a few days ago who was told by PSA that his business is no longer welcome after being critical of the company online. So you better be nice to the company if you keep wanting to ride the gravy train! ;-)
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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Anyone know a Mr Scott Hardy?
He Connects idiots like me to the Brilliant Lawyer's who Like $$$$$$$$.$$
https://topclassactions.com/category...nvestigations/ at least i'm Happy All the TiMe!!! Jus wanna say that i mostly agree wit the initial verbal genius ~
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Life's Grand, Denny Walsh Last edited by irishdenny; 02-13-2020 at 03:58 PM. |
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Because they call themselves experts at authentication. How can they be if they can't detect an altered card? Sounds like a fraud one way or the other.
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R0b G@@13t |
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Its their opinion I opine
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#30
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Don't disagree with you at all, but here in a nutshell is where/how we all get screwed. There is absolutely nothing illegal about trimming, altering, or doing anything else your heart desires to a baseball (or any) card you own. There is also absolutely nothing illegal about submitting an altered or trimmed card to a third-party grading company or service. And to my knowledge, there is no legal requirement that you tell any such TPG you submit a card to that it has been altered, trimmed, or doctored in any way, by you or anyone else. Now as for the TPGs examining said cards, they explicitly have it worded in their documentation and agreements that they are only giving their "opinion" as to a card's authenticity and condition. How do/can you ask a jury to find someone guilty of simply giving their "opinion" about something, especially when there is no single recognized, documented, and/or enforced set of codified standards or measures that a TPG, and their individual card graders, are required to follow? Short answer - you can't. Card graders are not licensed by any independent, overseeing authorities, like say doctors, CPas, licensed architects, etc. There is no single, unchanging set of card grading standards to hold any TPG and their card graders to. Look at how many times on just this forum alone we've discussed how different TPGs all seem to have their own separate grading standards, and how even those standards appear to continually change over time. And also, not everyone in the hobby is in agreement as to what exactly constitutes an alteration or doctoring of a card. In fact, there are those that look upon such work as perfectly acceptable restoration or preservation of a card. Again, just on this forum alone, we have threads where soaking, erasing marks, removal of glue and stains, pressing out creases, and so on, are discussed and considered at different levels of acceptability by different people. So, if we in the hobby can't possibly all agree on one single, unchanging, recognized and documented set of standards and measures regarding the authentication and grading of cards, how could we expect some jury to ever find anyone guilty of having committed a crime regarding the grading, authentication, and sale of supposedly altered and doctored cards? If anything, you'd likely have better luck prevailing against Ebay in their claims that their new authentication program virtually guarantees you'll get authentic cards, and as described. The independent TPG doing that authentication work is once again, only giving their "opinion", so how could Ebay truly guarantee anything? They really can't. But if you dig deep into Ebay's terms and conditions regarding this newly offered service, I wouldn't be surprised to find wording that helps to protect and/or indemnify them from any such potential claims. And the worst thing is, there's not a whole lot we can do about any of this. |
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PSA will not grade items which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, and Customer agrees not to knowingly submit any such items. Customer agrees that in the event PSA rejects any items for grading, PSA shall not refund the amount paid by Customer because the determination to reject an item requires a review by PSA's graders and authenticators. Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine. For purposes of this Agreement, “altered items” shall have the meaning set forth in the applicable Dealer Agreement or PSA Collectors Club Agreement by and between Customer and PSA (the “Customer Agreement”). If Customer has not entered into the Customer Agreement, Customer hereby agrees to be bound by the terms of the Customer Agreement, a copy of which can be found at PSAcard.com/join, and Customer's acceptance of this Agreement shall constitute Customer's signature on the Customer Agreement. Customer reaffirms its obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in the Customer Agreement.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 11:57 AM. |
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I see and understand what you're trying to do, but my comment about submitting altered cards to a TPG was that it is not illegal. What you just printed is the type of lawyer-speak that a TPG has in their agreements and documents to CTA (cover their asses), pure and simple. Absolutely nowhere does anything indicate there is an illegality to anyone for submitting something to a TPG that they know to be altered. Otherwise, why doesn't a TPG ever contact police when they get something that they see has been tampered with, and continue getting submissions from the same submitter they've found to give them such altered items, over and over again? That TPG language you printed is to make sure that they can have plausible deniability if there does turn out to be some blowback to a TPG for an altered item that is "accidently" graded and slabbed by them, and to also reinforce the fact that they get to charge for whatever they look at and grade, and keep the money, regardless of them finding it altered or not. I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but for a card grading submission to PSA (or any other TPG for that matter), is there a specific question anywhere on their paperwork/application/submission form/whatever that directly asks the submitter if they are knowingly submitting an altered or trimmed card to them for grading? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that is a big "NO". Reason being of course that if they did, and someone was actually dumb enough to answer that yes, they were trying to submit an altered/trimmed card for grading, the TPG would have to immediately nix the submission since they specifically state they do not grade such cards. And then they couldn't charge for it and get to keep the grading fee money. Allow me to translate what you just printed into very simple laymen's terminology: Don't ever tell us you are submitting an altered, doctored, or trimmed card to us for grading, because if you do, we can only give it an authentic grade, at best, and we can't really charge you for it then unless you still want it with an "A" grade. But if you do ever submit an altered, doctored, or trimmed card for grading without telling us, and you did such a piss-poor job that even we can catch it, it will only get an "authentic" grade, at best, and we're keeping your money. And on the off chance you did such a good job with the altering, doctoring, or trimming, to the point where we our graders couldn't detect it or just plain missed it, we'll grade it. But if it ever comes back later on that the card you submitted was altered, doctored, or trimmed, it is your fault and responsibility because you didn't tell us up front. I think that is pretty close to the true meaning. |
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Bob you're sort of knocking down a straw man because nobody has ever suggested merely trimming a card or submitting it for grading without subsequently SELLING it is illegal. It's the sale part that's the problem, and then it all becomes a problem. And if a TPG is knowingly grading altered cards it knows are going to be sold, it's arguably aiding and abetting the fraud.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 08:04 PM. |
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Excellent post Bob. Butch
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Man proposes and God disposes. U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. Last edited by butchie_t; 05-15-2022 at 12:00 PM. |
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I'm glad that sh*t probstein is included.
Karma! .
__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.- Roberto Clemente |
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The suit has been settled, and in all likelihood for a token amount.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 12:20 PM. |
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We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds. I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law. As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though. Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss! |
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On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 09:16 PM. |
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"The bank bag in the dumpster near my home does not prove beyond a doubt that I robbed a bank." "But the video of you robbing the bank does." "Oh." Last edited by drcy; 02-13-2020 at 12:32 PM. |
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This is AWESOME, at least with respect to PSA.
Do they need to disclose this on financial reports and/or reserve for this contingent liability? I have spoken to several members (and former members) about buying a high-profile card graded by PSA that we can prove has been altered, sending it in under their guaranty and then suing them when they failed to honor it. I am still up for that, sign me up. But in the meantime, I love to see this suit filed against PSA. And, I would love to join the Class, I just have no discernible proof that I can (yet) |
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Whereas, what you refer to in your comment above, "before and after" pictures of the exact same card will show variation and will have air space. I have gone over to blowout and seen some of their investigative work, and I am quite impressed.
__________________
Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Dstrawberryfan39, Ed_Hutchinson, Fballguy, fusorcruiser (x2), GoCalBears, Gorditadog, Luke, MikeKam, Moosedog, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, PSU, Ronniehatesjazz, Roarfrom34, Sebie43, Seven, and Wondo |
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