Astros sign stealing suspensions

[doug.goodman]

Wow.

The Red Sox and Alex Cora better be preparing for the next round...

[Jim65]

Alex should get much worse, involved for 2 different teams, and MLB thinks he's the mastermind behind it.

[packs]

I found the Astros punishment to be really weak. I mean, 5 million dollar fine? That's like fining me 5 bucks. If they really wanted to end cheating tomorrow, they'd lower the Astros luxury tax threshold by 30 million for the next decade and let them bleed.

[packs]

Also I don't understand how a guy who hacks a server in the offseason gets banned for life while a bunch of guys on the field cheating in game to win a World Series get 1 year bans.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by packs

I found the Astros punishment to be really weak. I mean, 5 million dollar fine? That's like fining me 5 bucks. If they really wanted to end cheating tomorrow, they'd lower the Astros luxury tax threshold by 30 million for the next decade and let them bleed.

$5mil is the maximum allowed by the league constitution.

[clydepepper]

Big WOW!!

[packs]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

$5mil is the maximum allowed by the league constitution.

Does the constitution say anything about lowering the luxury tax threshold for a team?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Also took first two picks in draft for next two years. Basically a ban on the GM and Hinch too. Who's going to hire them now (They've been fired)

[doug.goodman]

In explaining why no players were punished the Commish said :

“Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult, because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability.

“It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other clubs.”

If "virtually all" of the player were involved then their WS championship should be taken away from them.

There should not be a champion in 2018. Sorry. I meant 2017 I got my "Dodgers sucked in the WS" years confused.

Doug "which isn't to say that the Dodgers deserve it" Goodman

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by packs

I found the Astros punishment to be really weak. I mean, 5 million dollar fine? That's like fining me 5 bucks. If they really wanted to end cheating tomorrow, they'd lower the Astros luxury tax threshold by 30 million for the next decade and let them bleed.

The money was apparently the most allowed by MLB, even if it is pocket change for the owner/franchise. But there were also four draft picks taken away, too (plus the personnel suspensions).

Originally Posted by packs

Also I don't understand how a guy who hacks a server in the offseason gets banned for life while a bunch of guys on the field cheating in game to win a World Series get 1 year bans.

If you're referring to Chris Correa, formerly of the Cardinals, he also got sentenced to four years in a federal prison (not sure if he served it all).

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Who's going to hire them now (They've been fired)

That's an interesting question, although I actually could see Luhnow landing somewhere as a consultant or what not. He's got plausible deniability, plus he isn't going to be in uniform/be visible/have to do press conferences. Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire both landed hitting coach gigs after their scandals.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Alex should get much worse, involved for 2 different teams, and MLB thinks he's the mastermind behind it.

Cora is going to get hit very very hard...

[packs]

I was referring to Correa, but what does criminality have to do with violating the rules of baseball? Pete Rose wasn't banned for violating federal law.

In the most simplistic terms, Correa logged into his old account and looked at scouting reports in the off season.

I fail to see how what Correa did was more egregious to the game than what the Astros did. His lifetime ban is meant to deter behavior.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I could actually see Luhnow landing somewhere as a consultant or what not. He's got plausible deniability

No he doesn't.

If he did, he wouldn't have been suspended for a year, and fired.

Doug "but I do" Goodman

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

In explaining why no players were punished the Commish said :

“Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult, because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability.

“It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other clubs.”

If "virtually all" of the player were involved then their WS championship should be taken away from them.

There should not be a champion in 2018. Sorry. I meant 2017 I got my "Dodgers sucked in the WS" years confused.

Doug "which isn't to say that the Dodgers deserve it" Goodman

Manfred can say whatever he wants, he doesn't want to take on the Union by suspending players. The problem is, there is no deterrent to players cheating again, if theres no punishment for them.

[58pinson]

I find it outrageous, but oh so predictable, that the players involved in this have skated. While I can sympathize with the idea that penalizing their current teams is unfair, that should in no way preclude fining those involved in the most draconian fashion possible. The whole sordid affair just reminds me of how impossibly naive I am to engage on a fan basis with organized sports.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by packs

I was referring to Correa, but what does criminality have to do with violating the rules of baseball? Pete Rose wasn't banned for violating federal law.

In the most simplistic terms, Correa logged into his old account and looked at scouting reports in the off season.

I fail to see how what Correa did was more egregious to the game than what the Astros did. His lifetime ban is meant to deter behavior.

Well, as to the last part you write, I guess that's just different viewpoints. Breaking a federal law is more egregious on many levels. And look at the facts of Correa, because it wasn't his old account, he hacked into the Astros computers more than 48 times.

[todeen]

1) I thought players should have been penalized somehow, perhaps monetarily - like returning the postseason bonus.

2) I still thought this was better than NCAA consequences. I have always thought vacating wins and championships was a stupid idea. One cannot simply make a season disappear.

3) As the NCAA has proven, coaches and leaders who have made poor life choices are always able to be rehired after a period of reflection and a public apology. Especially small schools looking for an edge. Just look at Mike Leach.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[packs]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Well, as to the last part you write, I guess that's just different viewpoints. Breaking a federal law is more egregious on many levels. And look at the facts of Correa, because it wasn't his old account, he hacked into the Astros computers more than 48 times.

I suppose the weight of a federal crime might have influenced the lifetime ban, but you can also ban players and personnel for damage to the game. Alex Rodriguez was suspended for an entire season because of his conduct off the field. These are players and personnel whose conduct ON the field conceivably altered the outcomes of games in real time. Yet the penalties meted out for A-rod, a player who took PEDs, are the same as the penalties meted out for the GM and manager of a team actively cheating in game. Altering the outcomes of games has traditionally been something you get a lifetime ban for.

[egri]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Cora is going to get hit very very hard...

He was fired earlier today.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by todeen

1) I thought players should have been penalized somehow, perhaps monetarily - like returning the postseason bonus.

2)... I have always thought vacating wins and championships was a stupid idea. One cannot simply make a season disappear.

1 - I agree 100%, every player on the roster, and coaches, manager should be fined the amount of their WS "winning" share.

2 - I completely disagree. It's not making a season disappear, it's making the statement that they did not "win".

MLB should take the trophy back, too, if only to make the statement.

Doug

[todeen]

Responding to #2: I think that the real lesson is the sadness that it can't be undone. It stands forever as a stain. It took away a possible career defining moment for Kershaw and Darvish.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[drcy]

In these types of situations, I am a firm believer in taking away the championship, removing it eternally from the records. I think that's the best punishment.

[steve B]

In general I don't agree with removing titles.

They did that in cycling, and removed all Lance Armstrongs titles. In other cases the win went to the second place finisher. (Also done in other sports)
Except... in one of the years the top finisher who could be thought of as totally clean was 23rd or something like that. So there are no winners for seven years.

In Team sports it's just silly.
One guy gets paid, so everyone "loses" a title, and players years later lose the opportunity to play in bowl games.
Sure, punish the people who were outside the rules, but punishing players who didn't cheat, and players years later - Like USC which was punished in 2010 for stuff done in 2004-5. None of the players in 2010 or 2011 were even on the team the coach had even left.

[packs]

I'm not one for forfeiting titles either. I think an apt punishment for the players on the Astros postseason rosters would be to take the bonuses back and give them to the players on the teams they cheated to beat.

[TNP777]

To me, this scandal is second only to the 1919 Black Sox. An entire team, over the course of an entire season plus the postseason, conspired to use illegal technology to gain an advantage over their opponents. Regardless of active participation or silent partnership, the entire team made a mockery of the game and the game's integrity. Every team was explicitly warned in September 2017, yet the Astros continued to cheat. That is symptomatic of an organization that has lost its moral and ethical compass, top to bottom.

It's too bad Manfred is loathe to take on the union, and that he apparently thinks the union also lacks a moral and ethical compass. If Manfred had any cojones, he'd get together with Tony Clark and get him to agree suspensions would a major step to rebuilding the integrity of the game within their own player base and the fanbase. It ticks me off to no end that no player will see any punishment from their cheating.

Further, the 2017 title should be vacated. Again, Manfred lacks the spine to make it happen, so Astros owner Jim Crane should step up and do the right thing. The Astros are going to get crucified wherever they go in 2020. Fans will be merciless. Can you imagine the good will Crane could build up if he were to vacate his own title?

And I do mean vacate. The Dodgers lost in 2017 and 2018 to the eventual "champions", but so did the Yankees. It can never be known who would have prevailed in either season had the Astros and Red Sox not cheated. Two blank years, one now and one after the Boston investigation is over, would set the tone for all time.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by TNP777

and that he apparently thinks the union also lacks a moral and ethical compass.

The Players Union never cared about whats best for the game, the steroids era more than proved that. They protect players, right and wrong, and thats fine, thats what they are paid for.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

1 - I agree 100%, every player on the roster, and coaches, manager should be fined the amount of their WS "winning" share.

2 - I completely disagree. It's not making a season disappear, it's making the statement that they did not "win".

MLB should take the trophy back, too, if only to make the statement.

Doug

Yes, I agree.

[Nunzio11]

Now there are claims that Altuve and Bregman were wearing devices that buzzed for certain pitches. That could just be internet nonsense or this thing could get very interesting.

[parker1b2]

Originally Posted by Nunzio11

Now there are claims that Altuve and Bregman were wearing devices that buzzed for certain pitches. That could just be internet nonsense or this thing could get very interesting.

https://www.nj.com/yankees/2020/01/m...PUFXxVPgswmgEE

[packs]

Interesting layer to the story. While I don't believe you can take away a team championship, individual player awards are a different story. I would have zero problem with Altuve being stripped of his MVP and it being awarded to Judge.

[chaddurbin]

After the dust settles I want to apologize to Clayton Kershaw....us dodgers fans have always blamed him for losing the 2017 world series...it was unbelievable how dominant he was at home but that game 5 in houston he coughed up a 4-0 then 7-4 lead, and I don't think him or us have really gotten over that.

Im not sure of all the suspensions, but if the cheating goes as deep as buzzers they should be stripped of the title...those pompous asses including hinch and bregman were smug until the end when one of their own ratted them out....

[Runscott]

I think Hinch will end up managing again. Might not be right, but teams always find ways to justify hiring people who will help them win, and Hinch was apparently an observor who didn't like it, but didn't do anything. In a couple of years a GM will use that as an excuse to hire him.

Also, I think Beltran losing his Mets manager job was actually a reward for him. JK of course. I think losing that job because of his scandal actions as a player, could open the floodgates for more players facing repercussions. The problem with the whole thing is that MLB teams have always cheated as much as they could get away with, so I believe the Astros are the tip of the iceberg, the Red Sox could be the tip of a yet higher iceberg, and after that the icebergs will just keep on melting.

Everyone remembers the 2001 story revealing Bobby Thompson getting the sign for the home run pitch sent to him, originating by telescope. That's not much different.

[Runscott]

One more thing to add. As a lifelong Astros fan, my perspective is different. The sports talking heads keep repeating how horrible this is for Dodgers fans, etc. Hey, it's also horrible for Astros fans. It's not like, as fans, we wanted a World Series at all costs. That's on the team, and it's an embarrassment to us fans. I have World Series bunting that hung in the Astros stadium during the World Series games, and I doubt it will ever come out of the drawer now.

[doug.goodman]

One of the headlines on MLB.com is "Keuchel apologizes for '17 Astros' sign-stealing".

Which is MLB's way of saying "look they're sorry, isn't that punishment enough?"




Here are four quotes from his "apology", with my translations :

1 - "...it sucks to the extent of the clubhouse rule that was broken. I mean, that’s where I’ll go with that. I don’t really have much else to say about Mike.”

Which means : Mike Friars should have kept our secret, he shouldn't have told his new teammates that his old teammates were going to cheat, fuck that guy.



2 - "When stuff comes out about things that happened during the course of a big league ball season, it’s always blown up to the point of, ‘Oh my gosh, this has never happened before.’ I mean, I’m not going to go into specific details."

Which means : It wasn't really that big of a deal, everybody does it.



3 - “But during the course of the playoffs in ’17, everybody was using multiple signs. For factual purposes, when there’s nobody on base, when in the history of Major League Baseball has there been multiple signs? You can go back and watch film of every team in the playoffs. There was probably six out of eight teams using multiple signs. It’s just what the state of baseball was at that point and time"

Which means : we had to cheat, 6 of the 8 teams are using multiple signs, how else could we break their codes?



4 - "Was it against the rules? Yes, it was. I personally am sorry for what’s come about, the whole situation. But it is what it is, and we have to move past that. I never thought anything would have come like it did, and I myself am sorry. We have to move on.”

Which means : I am sorry that it's come out how we won. But we still have the trophy, and we still have our World Series bonuses, so really it's not that big of a deal. Neener neener neener, we won, hahahaha.


Fuck him.

According to the commissioner of baseball, "virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme"


Here is the list, 25 names to be written next to Shoeless Joe and Eddie Cicotte :

Juan Centeno
Evan Gattis
Brian McCann
Jose Altuve
Alex Bregman
Carlos Correa
Marwin Gonzalez
Yuli Gurriel
Carlos Beltran
Derek Fisher
Cameron Maybin
Josh Reddick
George Springer
Dallas Keuchel
Francisco Liriano
Chris Devenski
Ken Giles
Luke Gregerson
Will Harris
Lance McCullers, Jr.
Collin McHugh
Charlie Morton
Joe Musgrove
Brad Peacock
Justin Verlander

Fuck all of them.

Doug "potty mouth" Goodman

[Runscott]

I was excited when I heard that "a former Astros player" was going to apologize. Even more so when I found out it was Keuchel.

Less so when I listened to his apology. He's just made my very short MLB douchebag list.

[doug.goodman]

"Marwin Gonzalez was openly remorseful and apologized for his role in the Astros' sign-stealing scandal"

Quickly pushed off the front page of the MLB home page, because they want us to just get over it and move on and be excited about the possibility of 28 teams making the playoffs in the near future.

Doug "sarcasm" Goodman

[Marckus99]

Who cares they were stealing.

The game has sucked for years now.

I can’t bear to watch a single game.

[samosa4u]

Former Blue Jays pitcher sues Astros, says sign-stealing cut his career short

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/former-...hort-1.4806353

[steve B]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Former Blue Jays pitcher sues Astros, says sign-stealing cut his career short

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/former-...hort-1.4806353

Yeah, I'm sure the 9 HR given up in 41 innings the 6.31 era and going 0-3 in 11 games (5 starts) had nothing to do with it....

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by steve B

Yeah, I'm sure the 9 HR given up in 41 innings the 6.31 era and going 0-3 in 11 games (5 starts) had nothing to do with it....

You're right but I'm glad to see someone trying to sue them. I hope more try.

[GasHouseGang]

I haven't read all of these comments in detail, but I started to wonder how the Astros cheating may have affected bonuses that would have been due, or other salary negotiations for the players on the other teams after they lost in the playoffs or World Series. There must be many players that have monetary incentives tied to their post season performance. This scandal had to have cost multiple players on the losing teams millions in salary. I liked that Mike Trout came out and said the punishment didn't fit the crime and more should be done to punish the players involved.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I haven't posted in quite a while, life got in the way. So, I'm just now catching up on this thread. I have a question for those (especially Dodger fans) that think the Astros should vacate their title. Don Drysdale (Dodger) admittedly threw spitballs which are banned. Since he cheated too, should the Dodgers vacate their '59, '63 and '65 World Series Titles? If not, what's the difference? How can you condemn one team for cheating, but not another? I guess you could make the argument that Drysdale was only one person where the Astros did it as a team. Well, not really. Not every Astro was involved in the cheating, and Drysdale's teammates had to have known what he was doing. They didn't say anything. My point is that in both scenarios, multiple people had to have known whether they participated or not.

I'd also argue the fact that the cheating really didn't give them an advantage. They did much better on the road (where they're not accused of cheating) than they did at home (where they did cheat). Look at the road stats from 2017 compared to the home stats.

HOME:
Avg: .279
OBP: .340
Slg: .472
Runs scored: 395
W-L: 48-33

ROAD:
Avg: .284
OBP: .351
Slg: .483
Runs scored: 501
W-L: 53-28

And when it was all on the line, game 7 of the World Series, in LA, the Dodgers folded like an accordion 5-1. Were the Astros cheating that game too? Dodgers had a chance to wrap it up at home in a game 7 and they didn't get the job done. Period.

And this really isn't about the Astros, Drysdale or anything else. It's a matter of how people can justify certain cheating scenarios, but condemn others. I truly don't get that. And I'm not trying to justify what the Astros did. Yes, they cheated. Nobody is denying that. I'm not making excuses for it. But here's the difference. I own up to and acknowledge my team's cheating, do you own up to yours?

Yes, let's take away the Astros 2017 World Series Title...right after we take away the Dodgers '59, '63 and '65 Titles.

[packs]

Throwing a spitball and using your entire clubhouse to cheat are very different scenarios. People want the Astros punished as a team and the players on that team punished for their behavior as a team. If you want to say Drysdale should be punished now for throwing a spitball, that's fair. But what similarities are you trying to draw between one individual player throwing an illegal pitch and an entire team conspiring to use technology to steal signs and it's own players to relay that information to a batter in real time?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Throwing a spitball and using your entire clubhouse to cheat are very different scenarios. People want the Astros punished as a team and the players on that team punished for their behavior as a team. If you want to say Drysdale should be punished now for throwing a spitball, that's fair. But what similarities are you trying to draw between one individual player throwing an illegal pitch and an entire team conspiring to use technology to steal signs and it's own players to relay that information to a batter in real time?

Cheating is cheating. It doesn't matter if it's an individual effort or a team effort - either way, it's done for the benefit of the team - not the individual. You can spin it however you wish.

[packs]

It's not a spin, it's what happened.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

It's not a spin, it's what happened.

I'm not denying that's what happened. You are correct.

The spin comes when you try to justify cheating based on the number of individuals involved. Once again, cheating is cheating no matter if it's an individual effort or a team effort. The intent of the cheating is still the same - to give your team an advantage.

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm not denying that's what happened. You are correct.

The spin comes when you try to justify cheating based on the number of individuals involved. Once again, cheating is cheating no matter if it's an individual effort or a team effort. The intent of the cheating is still the same - to give your team an advantage.

I don't think I'm the one justifying cheating. And I can't help but see a difference between the actions of an individual and the coordinated actions of an entire team.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

And I can't help but see a difference between the actions of an individual and the coordinated actions of an entire team.

You're focusing on the actions, disregarding the intent. The intent in either case (cheating as an individual or cheating as a team) is the same - to give your team an advantage to win the game.

The number of individuals who participate is irrelevant, whether it's one player or an entire team. Cheating is cheating whether is an individual effort or a team effort. You win as a team, you lose as a team.

And it's fine if you don't see a difference. We can disagree.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're focusing on the actions, disregarding the intent. The intent in either case (cheating as an individual or cheating as a team) is the same - to give your team an advantage to win the game.

The number of individuals who participate is irrelevant, whether it's one player or an entire team. Cheating is cheating whether is an individual effort or a team effort. You win as a team, you lose as a team.

And it's fine if you don't see a difference. We can disagree.

I'm anti-Astros on this topic, but your point is fair and reasonable.

In track and field, if one member of running relay team is found to have used steroids, the entire team is disqualified because the steroid-user was an inherent part of the team, it's time and win. Some in the peanut gallery will object and say the other three members of the team should be able to keep their Gold Medal because only one was found to have cheated, but that's now it works.

[steve B]

It's interesting that nearly everyone thinks of it as a sign stealing infraction, when it's actually allowed to steal signs.
What isn't allowed is doing it with any sort of technology.

Not having signs that are hard to figure out and change periodically is like leaving your doors unlocked. Sure, people aren't supposed to come in and take stuff, but why make it easy for them?