Stunning quote on altered cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would refer too the first few sentences that specifically refer to it as altering.

Altering IS just another type of damage, alterations are a type of damage. They are a group of damage done to increase a cards sell value or appearance. That is a group, a type of damage. Another type, another group, of damage, made its own type because of the fact it is altering, not normal wear and tear but done for a specific purpose intentionally. It does not change my enjoyment of a card, so while it’s own type, it’s just another type..

I don’t know why this wants to be made a thing, but alright.

You make my point. For YOU, it doesn't change your enjoyment of a card. For those of us who grew up in the hobby with a certain mentality, we could not enjoy an altered card because it's heresy. That's the difference.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You make my point. For YOU, it doesn't change your enjoyment of a card. For those of us who grew up in the hobby with a certain mentality, we could not enjoy an altered card because it's heresy. That's the difference.

I've run across the unfortunate circumstance where the price boom, has made it affording the cards I want, borderline impossible, as a younger collector, the two altered cards I have in my collection, act as place holders until the day comes when I can afford respectable looking copies, in decent mid level grades. While we are seeing some regression in vintage, the main guy I collect, Mickey Mantle, does not go down in price. Which means, with certain cards, "altered" grades are one of my only option at the moment.

All that being said, personally, while I don't love the idea of owning an altered card, it's something that I've come to terms with, for now. It's also the reason why when I mainly shop around for a new card for my collection, I try to buy raw, from a long time collector or dealer, that knows the origin of the card. As it's one of the only ways I can ensure what I'm buying, hasn't been messed with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

I've run across the unfortunate circumstance where the price boom, has made it affording the cards I want, borderline impossible, as a younger collector, the two altered cards I have in my collection, act as place holders until the day comes when I can afford respectable looking copies, in decent mid level grades. While we are seeing some regression in vintage, the main guy I collect, Mickey Mantle, does not go down in price. Which means, with certain cards, "altered" grades are one of my only option at the moment.

All that being said, personally, while I don't love the idea of owning an altered card, it's something that I've come to terms with, for now. It's also the reason why when I mainly shop around for a new card for my collection, I try to buy raw, from a long time collector or dealer, that knows the origin of the card. As it's one of the only ways I can ensure what I'm buying, hasn't been messed with.

Sounds sensible.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Seven

I've run across the unfortunate circumstance where the price boom, has made it affording the cards I want, borderline impossible, as a younger collector, the two altered cards I have in my collection, act as place holders until the day comes when I can afford respectable looking copies, in decent mid level grades. While we are seeing some regression in vintage, the main guy I collect, Mickey Mantle, does not go down in price. Which means, with certain cards, "altered" grades are one of my only option at the moment.

All that being said, personally, while I don't love the idea of owning an altered card, it's something that I've come to terms with, for now. It's also the reason why when I mainly shop around for a new card for my collection, I try to buy raw, from a long time collector or dealer, that knows the origin of the card. As it's one of the only ways I can ensure what I'm buying, hasn't been messed with.

There's absolutely no shame in owning an altered card, whether it's a placeholder or one you plan to take to the grave. Many/most of us probably have a few of them in our collections whether we know it or not.

But when the altered card is passed off as original and is assigned a numerical grade by a TPG, then we have a problem. The entire premise of third party grading is rendered pointless and meaningless when trimmed/recolored/bleached cards are continually realizing a lot more money than lower-graded original examples.

And whether it's just mistaken identification by the TPG or outright fraud, when people are profiting it only exacerbates the problem.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You make my point. For YOU, it doesn't change your enjoyment of a card. For those of us who grew up in the hobby with a certain mentality, we could not enjoy an altered card because it's heresy. That's the difference.

So what I said was just fine and needed no correction, it just ruins the fun for you and it doesn’t for me in my heretical ways. That’s fine.

[tkd]

This may be best for another thread but has anyone come across any pre war reprints/fakes that are getting hard to tell the difference between an original?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tkd

This may be best for another thread but has anyone come across any pre war reprints/fakes that are getting hard to tell the difference between an original?

I don't think so. There's plenty of profit already in being able to make fakes that fool the less informed bidders. That said, all the molecules to be found in a T206 Wagner or a Baltimore News Ruth are plentiful in the world, and at some point the technology will be sufficiently developed for someone to be able to put them together to create a new card that none of us would be able to distinguish from the original.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tkd

This may be best for another thread but has anyone come across any pre war reprints/fakes that are getting hard to tell the difference between an original?

Take a look at this thread from 3 yrs back...

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...t=coupon+fraud

.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by tkd

This may be best for another thread but has anyone come across any pre war reprints/fakes that are getting hard to tell the difference between an original?

With rapidly improving technology, I'm more fearful of someone getting their hands on old card stock and attempting to make counterfeit versions of cards.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

...if some one micro-trimmed an edge, that's just another type of damage...

The type done purposefully, with the intent of deceiving and defrauding an unsuspecting buyer.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Eric72

The type done purposefully, with the intent of deceiving and defrauding an unsuspecting buyer.

See #50.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

See #50.

I've read the entire thread. We have a difference of opinion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I've read the entire thread. We have a difference of opinion.

That may be, but absolutely nowhere am I saying that altering is not "The type done purposefully, with the intent of deceiving and defrauding an unsuspecting buyer." I've said it explicitly multiple times.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by G1911

That may be, but absolutely nowhere am I saying that altering is not "The type done purposefully, with the intent of deceiving and defrauding an unsuspecting buyer." I've said it explicitly multiple times.

Not sure where you've explicitly said that. Perhaps in another thread. The passage you quoted above was my opinion regarding micro-trimming.

Originally Posted by G1911

...I have many I know are trimmed, recolored etc., but I'm positive I have many more I don't realize are altered. However, I personally don't really care...

It's a big hobby. Plenty of room for everyone. If you "personally don't really care" about unwittingly acquiring altered cards, I applaud you for being so easygoing.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

If the accusations against Evan are true, then what's his excuse?

https://youtu.be/qHDBDTlrp0o


See the video at 1:40

Arnold Rothstein: What's the secret of America?

Charlie Luciano: What's the matter with this guy? I'm 24 years old, I don't...

Arnold Rothstein: MONEY! Everything is MONEY, Charlie.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like that one MUCH better than the PSA 7.

I like them both.

[MattyC]

I see an increasing amount of collectors out there 40s to 20s who are okay with a card having been improved. They just want it to look great and be in the slab. Plastic surgery, so to speak.

That said, reading this thread reminds me though why I will always hold onto my 52 Topps Mantle— because I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of the lovely gentleman who pulled it from the pack in the summer of '52, and who later had it graded.

Just one collector's opinion, for me to be able to trace a card's origin like that from pack to my hand adds value that cannot be quantified (though buddies have certainly tried to quantify it and buy it from me, LOL). I think very few graded old cards have a lineage that a collector can look at and prove the card was never improved.

[Exhibitman]

Look, debating whether a trim is an alteration (it is) or damage (it is) is pointless, as is assuming none of our cards are altered because we are all such studs at recognizing alterations. We aren't. I also don't think there is more of a tolerance of alterations today than 30 years ago. Frankly there is more scrutiny of card grades now than ever before because of the money. My first 1952 Bowman Mantle cost me $3.25; if someone did some work on that, no biggie, I can shrug it off. My current card cost me a ton more. If that one was worked on I'd be pissed because I can't just shrug off that level of loss.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I see an increasing amount of collectors out there 40s to 20s who are okay with a card having been improved. They just want it to look great and be in the slab.

But why will a person pay hundreds of thousands for a PSA 10 price on something like the '86 Michael Jordan, when a NM-MT+ looking PSA AUTH or PSA AUTH ALTERED can be bought for under $5,000?
Saying the buyers don't care is BS. They may be in on the scam, but they don't just want the card in the holder, they want the fake grade on the label more than the card.

BTW, I noticed that PSA is now hiding the Cert number in their Auction Prices Realized tool. Watch the page loading video I just shot and notice that the Cert column is there while the page is loaded, but disappears when the page is fully rendered. Why get rid of that?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zVEr9UCFw9XLUYqp7

[SD]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I see an increasing amount of collectors out there 40s to 20s who are okay with a card having been improved. They just want it to look great and be in the slab. Plastic surgery, so to speak.



That said, reading this thread reminds me though why I will always hold onto my 52 Topps Mantle— because I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of the lovely gentleman who pulled it from the pack in the summer of '52, and who later had it graded.



Just one collector's opinion, for me to be able to trace a card's origin like that from pack to my hand adds value that cannot be quantified (though buddies have certainly tried to quantify it and buy it from me, LOL). I think very few graded old cards have a lineage that a collector can look at and prove the card was never improved.

About 10 years ago I was able to get 30 33 goudeys from a very old gentleman and his family. He claimed he unpacked every one of them and knew which cards where packed together.

Through mostly commons, they hold a higher value to me because of the origin. Included was these 2 beauties.

DSC07151.jpgnewjpg01-29-21 03-52-38.jpg

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Just one collector's opinion, for me to be able to trace a card's origin like that from pack to my hand adds value that cannot be quantified (though buddies have certainly tried to quantify it and buy it from me, LOL). I think very few graded old cards have a lineage that a collector can look at and prove the card was never improved.

Many ebay sellers provide a lineage for the cards they're selling - "given to me by my grandpa," "left to me by my grandpa," "found in my grandpa's attic after he passed away," etc. Not all provided lineages have the same weight.

[MattyC]

Sup Mike! Trust all is good with u. So true forgot about that classic ebay description— they love to use it on reprints especially lol!