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#201
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It's amazing that over a year has passed since the Blowout threads exposed widespread card doctoring and yet PSA appears to be stronger than ever. The CU stock is now over $43 - which is about double of the stock price when the scandal broke. Sadly, it now appears very little will come of this. We recently learned that PSA will not buy back the doctored cards, but rather tell the consumers to the settle up with the seller. PSA continues to ban and silence collectors on their message boards who publicly acknowledge the problem. The outed card doctors, if banned, will likely use "fronts" to submit doctored cards to PSA and collectors and investors will continue to spend millions of dollars on doctored cards with not a clue they've been duped. In short it's utterly sickening how a select group of people have enriched themselves using this deplorable business model.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#202
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And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in. Pretty galling for the "Never get cheated!" market leader. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4 Not a whole lot different with the new private ownership group, or Mr. Genamint. They have been assimilated by the Borg. (Not really a Trekkie; did I get that joke right?)
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-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#203
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The sports collectibles industry is one that requires no education or licensure to participate, has no regulation, has no governing body to oversee even its largest sellers and dealers, has no real penalties for getting caught committing fraud, garners little to no interest from federal authorities or any other policing agency, and has customers who tend to look the other way even when outlandish criminal acts are committed.
Either accept it or take up another hobby because this one has always been full of shady people and probably always will. I hear woodworking is very rewarding. |
#204
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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#206
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I disagree somewhat, there certainly was (if indeed it's over and it may not be) a significant FBI investigation into the trimming scandal. It's not fair to say the government has "little to no interest." There was also a significant investigation of "Copperfield," the guy from Mexico allegedly selling cards in resealed or fake slabs.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 08:40 AM. |
#207
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Of course, and all auction houses are licensed. So to say the industry doesn't have any authorities or laws they're beholden to is completely wrong.
Caveat emptor, but if that PSA 9 used to a PSA 5 with pressed out crease, no problem I guess. Surely the additional $15K in sale value makes sense.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#208
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Because they call themselves experts at authentication. How can they be if they can't detect an altered card? Sounds like a fraud one way or the other.
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R0b G0u13t |
#209
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Its their opinion I opine
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#210
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Don't disagree with you at all, but here in a nutshell is where/how we all get screwed. There is absolutely nothing illegal about trimming, altering, or doing anything else your heart desires to a baseball (or any) card you own. There is also absolutely nothing illegal about submitting an altered or trimmed card to a third-party grading company or service. And to my knowledge, there is no legal requirement that you tell any such TPG you submit a card to that it has been altered, trimmed, or doctored in any way, by you or anyone else. Now as for the TPGs examining said cards, they explicitly have it worded in their documentation and agreements that they are only giving their "opinion" as to a card's authenticity and condition. How do/can you ask a jury to find someone guilty of simply giving their "opinion" about something, especially when there is no single recognized, documented, and/or enforced set of codified standards or measures that a TPG, and their individual card graders, are required to follow? Short answer - you can't. Card graders are not licensed by any independent, overseeing authorities, like say doctors, CPas, licensed architects, etc. There is no single, unchanging set of card grading standards to hold any TPG and their card graders to. Look at how many times on just this forum alone we've discussed how different TPGs all seem to have their own separate grading standards, and how even those standards appear to continually change over time. And also, not everyone in the hobby is in agreement as to what exactly constitutes an alteration or doctoring of a card. In fact, there are those that look upon such work as perfectly acceptable restoration or preservation of a card. Again, just on this forum alone, we have threads where soaking, erasing marks, removal of glue and stains, pressing out creases, and so on, are discussed and considered at different levels of acceptability by different people. So, if we in the hobby can't possibly all agree on one single, unchanging, recognized and documented set of standards and measures regarding the authentication and grading of cards, how could we expect some jury to ever find anyone guilty of having committed a crime regarding the grading, authentication, and sale of supposedly altered and doctored cards? If anything, you'd likely have better luck prevailing against Ebay in their claims that their new authentication program virtually guarantees you'll get authentic cards, and as described. The independent TPG doing that authentication work is once again, only giving their "opinion", so how could Ebay truly guarantee anything? They really can't. But if you dig deep into Ebay's terms and conditions regarding this newly offered service, I wouldn't be surprised to find wording that helps to protect and/or indemnify them from any such potential claims. And the worst thing is, there's not a whole lot we can do about any of this. |
#211
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PSA will not grade items which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, and Customer agrees not to knowingly submit any such items. Customer agrees that in the event PSA rejects any items for grading, PSA shall not refund the amount paid by Customer because the determination to reject an item requires a review by PSA's graders and authenticators. Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine. For purposes of this Agreement, “altered items” shall have the meaning set forth in the applicable Dealer Agreement or PSA Collectors Club Agreement by and between Customer and PSA (the “Customer Agreement”). If Customer has not entered into the Customer Agreement, Customer hereby agrees to be bound by the terms of the Customer Agreement, a copy of which can be found at PSAcard.com/join, and Customer's acceptance of this Agreement shall constitute Customer's signature on the Customer Agreement. Customer reaffirms its obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in the Customer Agreement.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 11:57 AM. |
#212
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Excellent post Bob. Butch
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“Man proposes and God disposes.” U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. Last edited by butchie_t; 05-15-2022 at 12:00 PM. |
#213
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I'm glad that sh*t probstein is included.
Karma! .
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
#214
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The suit has been settled, and in all likelihood for a token amount.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#215
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 12:20 PM. |
#216
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Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#218
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Crux of the matter: Cards broken from slabs. Cards altered. Cards given number grades by PSA. Cards sold for thousands by Heritage. PSA knows the score. Both they and Heritage were informed of the cards while up for auction. Did any get pulled?
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#219
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#220
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I am one of the only one’s who thinks the Pump&Dump Shill Bidding is way worse than the altering not being caught?
Don’t get me wrong I don’t like altering at all but to me the real ridiculousness was the stuff going on over at PWCC...maybe that’s a better way to get some justice. Wasn't there direct electronic email evidence of that guy who owns PWCC writing a guy/bidder to take the next bid on a card, you won’t be outbid ? Didn’t Mastro go to Jail over Shill Bidding and not Trimming ? Last edited by Johnny630; 05-15-2022 at 04:59 PM. |
#221
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Personally I would rather buy a natural card at a shilled price than an altered card at an unshilled price.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#222
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Board game weenie
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Life's Grand, Denny Walsh |
#223
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I see and understand what you're trying to do, but my comment about submitting altered cards to a TPG was that it is not illegal. What you just printed is the type of lawyer-speak that a TPG has in their agreements and documents to CTA (cover their asses), pure and simple. Absolutely nowhere does anything indicate there is an illegality to anyone for submitting something to a TPG that they know to be altered. Otherwise, why doesn't a TPG ever contact police when they get something that they see has been tampered with, and continue getting submissions from the same submitter they've found to give them such altered items, over and over again? That TPG language you printed is to make sure that they can have plausible deniability if there does turn out to be some blowback to a TPG for an altered item that is "accidently" graded and slabbed by them, and to also reinforce the fact that they get to charge for whatever they look at and grade, and keep the money, regardless of them finding it altered or not. I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but for a card grading submission to PSA (or any other TPG for that matter), is there a specific question anywhere on their paperwork/application/submission form/whatever that directly asks the submitter if they are knowingly submitting an altered or trimmed card to them for grading? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that is a big "NO". Reason being of course that if they did, and someone was actually dumb enough to answer that yes, they were trying to submit an altered/trimmed card for grading, the TPG would have to immediately nix the submission since they specifically state they do not grade such cards. And then they couldn't charge for it and get to keep the grading fee money. Allow me to translate what you just printed into very simple laymen's terminology: Don't ever tell us you are submitting an altered, doctored, or trimmed card to us for grading, because if you do, we can only give it an authentic grade, at best, and we can't really charge you for it then unless you still want it with an "A" grade. But if you do ever submit an altered, doctored, or trimmed card for grading without telling us, and you did such a piss-poor job that even we can catch it, it will only get an "authentic" grade, at best, and we're keeping your money. And on the off chance you did such a good job with the altering, doctoring, or trimming, to the point where we our graders couldn't detect it or just plain missed it, we'll grade it. But if it ever comes back later on that the card you submitted was altered, doctored, or trimmed, it is your fault and responsibility because you didn't tell us up front. I think that is pretty close to the true meaning. |
#224
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Bob you're sort of knocking down a straw man because nobody has ever suggested merely trimming a card or submitting it for grading without subsequently SELLING it is illegal. It's the sale part that's the problem, and then it all becomes a problem. And if a TPG is knowingly grading altered cards it knows are going to be sold, it's arguably aiding and abetting the fraud.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 08:04 PM. |
#225
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This will turn out to be a nonevent. The vast majority of class action lawsuits end up with a financial settlement that is not significant other than covering attorney fees. I bet this will end the same.
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#226
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We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds. I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law. As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though. Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss! |
#227
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I know and agree, which is exactly why I think they put that kind of wording in their agreements that you quoted. If they come out say in their agreements that you're not supposed to knowingly submit altered cards to them, but you do anyway, they can always say they missed it, or it is only their opinion, so as to get out of any possible liability. But their big ace in the hole, to me, is that because you didn't tell them up front a card you submitted was altered/trimmed, you lied to them and they can plausibly deny that they had any knowledge an altered/trimmed card that got past them, and was numerically graded as a result, was going to be sold. As I believe you have intimated yourself, we may pretty much believe and know what is going on and what it appears that certain parties are doing, the problem is actually being able to prove it in a court of law. |
#228
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Finding out you got stuck with an altered /trimmed card after the fact is very different though. Chances are you find out long after acquiring the card/item, and therefore maybe have no recourse against the seller. And now that you know the card/item has in fact been altered/trimmed and previously misrepresented, you can't just go and sell it to someone else and have any hope of getting even close to what you originally paid for it back. Unless you go to the dark side and try to pawn it off on someone else without disclosing the alteration/trimming first. |
#229
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On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 09:16 PM. |
#230
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2022 at 09:19 PM. |
#231
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1. Now the jury is going to see that the supposed TPG experts actually don't appear to all have or follow the same grading standards and measures (unless the TPG being testified against is suddenly willing to admit they blew it and made a mistake). 2. Now you've set a precedent of one TPG testifying against another, which could end up backfiring down the road if the two TPGs ever find their positions switched in some future case. I can easily see one TPG agreeing to testify against another as revenge for testimony that was previously given against them. |
#233
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And if they ever do get hauled in to court....... Exhibit A - The Gretzky Wagner This card is a known trimmed/altered card in a graded holder, graded by arguably the No 1 TPG in the world , and yet is likely still worth more than any other sports card on the planet! So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, here is a card graded by a trusted and respected hobby TPG that is proven to be wrongly graded, yet is probably still worth more than every other sports card there is. In fact, because of the notoriety of the card and the mis-grading, it is arguably worth even more, not less money, today. And there is that little kernel of a reasonable doubt that can start to creep into a juror's mind. Last edited by BobC; 05-15-2022 at 10:25 PM. |
#234
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You know, it’s funny, when I spoke years ago long before the scandal to Brian B, we talked a bit about the Wagner and whether it showed the hobby didn’t really care about trimming. I don’t think he believed that, and the fact that he investigated the scandal extensively shows otherwise, but it’s an interesting rhetorical point. I liked your closing argument but I think the other side would have a much better one at least on that point.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#235
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i agree, but again, I believe a defense attorney/team would make sure to keep as many actual card collectors off a jury as possible. So assuming you're dealing with mostly ordinary people that think of us hard core collectors as idiot nerds (LOL), that kind of factual information will likely stick in their minds, and possibly give them reason to doubt that the prosecution claiming such trimming and alterations is always bad, may not be so true. They only need to get one person on that jury to have reasonable doubt, right? |
#236
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"Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss. We won't get fooled again."
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#237
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Who but Roger Daltrey could sing that? Not sure anyone else even tried to cover that song.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#238
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Van Halen - 1992 (Live, but released) Axel Rudy Pell Hayseed Dixie A short and very varied list. Also sort of quoted in a Terry Pratchett book. "Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!" Also for added amusement Some of the upland clans have mastered the concept of law as a weapon however, and note that it is a good idea "neever te sign a feegle contract; six inch high people write verra small print". Beware the cry, "We've got a cheap lawyer an' we're not afraid to use him!" Their swords glow blue in the presence of lawyers. From https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Nac_Mac_Feegle |
#239
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Check out this site LOL. https://secondhandsongs.com/work/5477/versions A world of cynicism squeezed into one line, and it will probably always resonate.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#240
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Peter, just listened to the Van Halen version. Not bad at all, great guitar work, of course, but it just doesn't measure up to the original. That song was made for Daltry to sing.
The Who have always been my favorite group from the British invasion, even over the Stones and the Beatles. I never grow tired of hearing 'Baba O'Reilly. |
#241
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Is Brent still at PWCC? I haven’t heard his name mentioned recently.
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#242
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I cannot imagine otherwise. He IS PWCC.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#243
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#244
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Don't disagree at all, but that is exactly why a defense lawyer/team will never let it happen.
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#245
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Relative to the general population there aren't that many collectors. I would bet the odds of even one showing up in a typical jury pool are pretty low.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#246
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As you've said before, proving guilt on something like this in a court of law is anything but easy. |
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