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#51
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Is it a fart if a bear farts in the woods and nobody hears it? If you follow the logic then NO it wouldn't be a problem because you wouldn't know the crease was there to begin with. On the other hand, I wouldn't like to purchase a card where a crease was removed only to have it come back again. |
#52
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Dan Koteles
If you murder somebody and get it away with it, isnt it still |
#53
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
But, to compare taking a crease out of a card to murder.... |
#54
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: jay behrens
As long as you are not adding something that is not supposed to be there (color, buld up a corner) or taking something away that is supposed to be there (trimming, bleaching color) then it really does not matter to me. |
#55
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: davidcycleback
One practical thing of being on the look out for altered cards, and checking |
#56
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Dylan
Can anyone explain how you can take a crease out of a card anyways? I hear people say that some peope "wash" cards, couldnt this potentially worsen the card, and warp it? It seems like a lot to risk, but i guess there are experts at it just like with painting restoration. |
#57
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: MikeU
Yes |
#58
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Steve M.
Yes |
#59
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Unless and until it can be proven that a card with a crease removed has the same structural integrity than the card before it received the crease, thus not making it more prone to future creasing, removing the crease is an alteration of the card that in my view must be disclosed to a perspective buyer and that should either lower the grade the card would receive or result in a qualifier being put on the unchanged grade. The rationale behind this response is that with impaired structural intergrity, the card is not its original state. Having said that, even if it could be proven that the structural integrity was not impaired, it is still possible that the removal still altered the card, but for other reasons. For example, if the removal changes the texture of the card or flattens it, then because the card has not been returned to its original state I would still regard the card as having been altered. |
#60
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: leon
Corey, as long as we all realize how prevelent the taking out of creases is then I think we are not being naive. From my last 2 days of speaking with folks my guess is that about 85% of the dealers are taking creases/wrinkles out. One of them asked me if I cared if one was taken out and I couldn't tell. I told them "no".....So far Griffins is the only one I have ever heard say a crease has come back. That's not very many.... |
#61
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Not sure what your main point is. The fact that the practice might be so prevalent and perhaps undetectable doesn't mean it should not be disclosed. Disclosing something to a perspective buyer doesn't mean the buyer will or even be expected to care about what was done. It simply recognizes that some buyers might reasonably regard such disclosure as material in deciding whether to make the purchase and at what price. However, having said this, I am not so naive as to believe even a small fraction of the dealers/collectors who remove the creases/wrinkles will make the disclosure. And why won't they? Probably because they are afraid a number of buyers will regard the removal as being an alteration of the card thus lowering its value! |
#62
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Like it or not, "condition" is a factor that helps determine a card's value. The implication is that a card in "near mint" condition HAS SURVIVED FOR X NUMBER OF YEARS IN THAT CONDITION, and because of that, has a greater value that another example of the same card that has wrinkles and creases. |
#63
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: dennis
there are creases in cards that can only be seen under magnification and would not be noticed under eye inspection. i believe these are being removed (as leon stated 85%)by collectors/dealers and are getting past the slabbers. IT IS ALTERING but is never going to be detected,and the crese will never come back. then there is an obvious creased card. it is forever a creased card and alteration will be obvious to all. to improve it is alteration and i think we have all seen a few of these. |
#64
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Tony Andrea
Leon- |
#65
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
If what you say is true, Leon, and I suspect that it is, 15% of dealers do not alter cards and probably disclose the assessment that a card which they have available for sale may have been altered! |
#66
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: cmoking
"So far Griffins is the only one I have ever heard say a crease has come back. That's not very many...." |
#67
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I differentiate between major and minor restoration for the purposes of deception. |
#68
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
How important is the motivation? Is it better that a card is trimmed for the convenience of it fitting into something, rather than to decieve others? |
#69
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Not so sure that creases come back once the cards are placed in graded holders. They are either gone completely or they are not. Unless you watch the card on day 1 of owning it and compare it to day 256 and see a change in the card, then what you are probably seeing is a card that someone attempted to remove the crease and they did a poor job. |
#70
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: leon
Ever hear of an ostrich sticking his head in the sand? It's happening regardless of what we say...why not bring it out of the dark, back room and open it up? For the record I have never tried to get a crease or wrinkle out of a card...I just don't think it's the end of the world. |
#71
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: martindl
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#72
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: John
I think it says a lot for someone’s character who either (A) supports the practice or (B) turns a blind eye and doesn’t really care or bother them. |
#73
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
I also agree that doing anything to a card is altering its present state. But, what is OK and what is not? |
#74
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Tony Andrea
Leon- |
#75
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: jay behrens
If removing creases from cards is as prevelant as Leon says, then why don't all these dealers just fess up and admit it? Could it be because most people still feel that it's unethical? If most people think it's OK, then why not come forward? |
#76
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: leon
I am not a big supporter I just don't see that it's as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Maybe it is, I have been wrong before. I just know it goes on and would prefer it to come out in the open. Maybe there could be different color holders for altered cards and they could get graded, like comics. Personally I don't have that big of a problem with it. With that said I have never done it or asked anyone to do it for me. Until recently I held the same view as the last several folks. I guess there are degrees to everything. I haven't given much thought to the difference between wrinkles and creases but maybe there could be a line there....I guess I could have never said anything and we could all still be playing happily....never talking about it.... |
#77
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Cobby33
Leon- You said, "I haven't given much thought to the difference between wrinkles and creases but maybe THERE COULD BE A LINE THERE..." That's hilarious! Did you mean to say that? |
#78
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: leon
I really meant it in the context of removing them.........since I have never thought about it I would need to give it some more thought...."structural integrity" has me thinking.....that's all |
#79
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: jay behrens
It is a big deal because it is being done to deceive people. It it wasn't done for that reason, then they should be more than willing to admit to the work they do. Hell, it would even get them more business from people that want to get their cards improved. |
#80
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Cobby33
Leon- Was referring to the [probably inadvertent] pun (or maybe play-on-words) in your post |
#81
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: leon
woops...I am a bit defensive since getting slammed for talking about stuff that I don't do or knew too much about (until a few days ago)....at least to the extent it is being done.......but yes....I guess, had I thought to do it, it would have been pretty good.... |
#82
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Cobby33
Kinda figured that...Take in all in stride, it's nothing personal. Those of us who have dealt with you know you're 100% above-board. |
#83
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
If you look at a card and can not tell it has been altered, and the grading companies can not tell either, then there is no evidence of the alteration. |
#84
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: jay behrens
As Leon pointed out, and I agree, the slabbers should be holdering everything they get and when they detect that the card is altered, then it get put in a colder with a different colored flip. They do it for comics, so why not baseball cards. Just as in comics, people are willing to pay for nice looking cards regardless whether or not the card has been altered. At least this way, we know what cards have been altered and can bid accordingly. |
#85
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Cobby33
Is a mark on the card (MK) considered an "alteration?" Knowing how PSA (and others) currently deal with this, this could become another inconsistent grading practice of theirs. |
#86
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: jay behrens
Technically, it is altering the card, but is an alteration that has a negative effect on the calue of the card. The only problem people would have with someone putting ink or pencil marks on a card is that most would be saddened that anyone would deface a card in a such a way today. |
#87
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: BcD
is this altered in any way???? |
#88
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: warshawlaw
"Is a mark on the card (MK) considered an "alteration?" |
#89
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Jeff Drum
Plain and simply as stated before more eloquently than I; the fact that the people who are doing it do not advertise the fact in their listings or even advertise for "wrinkle-removing" business should tell you what even the "doctors" think about what they are doing. Even if they see no issue, it tells me that they feel (and rightfully so) that the majority of their potential customer base would have any issue with it and it would affect their business. I agree with the previous comments that PSA/SGC/GAI should all have slabs and different color labels for altered cards. Now will that prevent the crackers/reslabbers from plying their trade - No! |
#90
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Noel
Clearly yes. I think Jay has it spot on. It is unethical at best and stealing at worst. Why are these people who alter cards hiding in the backroom and not coming forward? They know, along with a large percentage of others it is deceptive and wrong. In the end, these people will make their money and the card collecting community will be left with an inferior product. Additionally, grading companies who overlook this should be held liable for the difference in the alteration. Probably would create a little more conscious awareness of the practice if it hits them right in the pocket book. The bottom line is it is not being done under the watchful eyes of card collecting community but rather under the guise that the card is something other than what it is being advertised. |
#91
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Wait, I think I get it! |
#92
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: cmoking
Warshawlaw wrote: "This is the "hanging chad" of grading. If PSA divines that the mark was made by some creative kid, it gets slabbed. If "KarnakPSA" decides it was made by someone trying to deceive, it get rejected. Stupid, indefensible distinction. " |
#93
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: davidcycleback
In this hobby, people generally have two major 'condition' critereon for pricing a card: |
#94
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: Cobby33
Sometimes, they grade a card "but for" the mark and qualify it with a "MK." Example, if a card would have gotten a "6" without the mark, it would get a "6 (MK)." |
#95
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opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?
Posted By: cmoking
"Sometimes, they just knock it down a grade (or not), without an "MK."" |
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