The New York Times puts their two cents into the Jeter memorabilia story

[David Atkatz]

Of course Ruth "gave a shit about money." He got every cent he could from the owners, went on barnstorming tours, hired an agent to get him endorsements, personal appearances, etc.
He just never ripped off his fans.

[David Atkatz]

Good night. Perhaps tomorrow, rejuvenated by a good night's sleep, you'll have the strength to write a few more checks to those poor, put-upon athletes, and their handlers. Keep up the good work. With a bit of luck, we can get Jeter's price above $1k.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Good night. Perhaps tomorrow, rejuvenated by a good night's sleep, you'll have the strength to write a few more checks to those poor, put-upon athletes, and their handlers. Keep up the good work. With a bit of luck, we can get Jeter's price above $1k.

For the last time, the Steiner stuff has never interested me. I have never spent a penny with him. My collection is exclusively pre-war. My latest autograph? Connie Mack on a Callahan card in the latest Imperial Sports Auction.

Where we diverge is that you fault today's athletes for their human imperfections and laud the athletes of yesteryear for being saints. Talk about hero worship. Geesh.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Where we diverge is that you fault today's athletes for their human imperfections and laud the athletes of yesteryear for being saints. Talk about hero worship. Geesh.

So, you admit it's an "imperfection" for one to sell one's autograph to one's adoring fans! Good for you!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

My collection is exclusively pre-war. My latest autograph? Connie Mack on a Callahan card in the latest Imperial Sports Auction.

The irony, of course, is that every single signed pre-war card in your collection exists because some fan--most likely a kid--either asked in person or mailed his card off to be signed. And no money changed hands. What a bunch of dolts those old-timers where.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Of course athletes have changed. Bloodsuckers like Steiner have shown them, nay, produced for them, a new "business model." Extreme greed. And all it took to make it work was folks like you--ones not only happy to pay, but, more than that, honored to pay.

"Thank you, sir; may I have another."

+1!!!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Thanks for strengthening my point! There never was a market (shall we say "demand?) for $600 Feller signatures. Why? 'Cause he never stopped signing for nothing (or next to nothing.)

David,
I can't believe we're totally on the same page here. BTW, thanks for pleading my side of the case while I slept. Do you and T206 ever sleep, BTW?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Good night. Perhaps tomorrow, rejuvenated by a good night's sleep, you'll have the strength to write a few more checks to those poor, put-upon athletes, and their handlers. Keep up the good work. With a bit of luck, we can get Jeter's price above $1k.

LOL- awesome response!!

[barrysloate]

In my entire life as a baseball fan and memorabilia collector, the total number of autographs I've gotten in person is one- Joe DiMaggio's when he signed for free at a Bowery Savings Bank in downtown Brooklyn. He was pleasant and we were able to chat for a few minutes. Other than that, I have never had even a scintilla of interest in getting a famous athlete to sign something. I've always felt it was utterly meaningless and never understood the phenomenon.

Steiner certainly may be greedy for asking $600 for a signed Jeter ball, but what I cannot fathom is why there is a single person on this earth who would want to buy one. I would put a market value of about three cents on it, and I would have to be in a generous mood to even pay that. When I used to go to shows and see people standing on line for hours, just so they could overpay for an autograph from some surly ex-athlete who might not even make eye contact with them, I would shake my head in disbelief. Surely there has to be a better way to spend one's time and money.

But the world doesn't always listen to me, and this silly market of hero worship will continue unabated. Hey, people can spend their money as they wish.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The irony, of course, is that every single signed pre-war card in your collection exists because some fan--most likely a kid--either asked in person or mailed his card off to be signed. And no money changed hands. What a bunch of dolts those old-timers where.

Most of my collection is from the Jeff Morey collection. He got the cards signed in person or by mail as an adult in the late 1950s through the 1960s and 1970s. He got them for free along with thousands of index cards. Then, lo and behold, a market developed -- according to you because of athlete behavior -- and he sold his entire collection for tens of thousands of dollars.

This highlights my point. The market changed. Behavior changed. To fault the athletes, or Steiner, collectors, or anyone for suddenly developing "greed" shows a total lack of understanding of some pretty basic economic fundamentals.

The only irony is that you collect items that will retain a value, while you disdain the collectors of Stadium dirt, which will likely have no value at all. While some idiot fans may actually think there is going to be money in those things, most are giving them as gifts, or buying them as pure mementos of today's game. They are the true collectors -- building their collections with no regard for future sale or value. They collect just to have, share and/or remember. That it costs them something to buld their collections is entirely besides the point.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Steiner certainly may be greedy for asking $600 for a signed Jeter ball, but what I cannot fathom is why there is a single person on this earth who would want to buy one.

You nailed it Barry...all this anger at Steiner should be aimed at the people who drive this market...autographed baseballs are not electricity or gasoline..it is not food...there apparently exist people who will pay $500 for an autograph of someone still breathing. Steiner is just obliging them.

[calvindog]

Agreed. Any putz who spends $600 on a Jeter signed ball can be assured he will never get his money back when he tries to sell it.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Agreed. Any putz who spends $600 on a Jeter signed ball can be assured he will never get his money back when he tries to sell it.

But don't you think most people are getting one as a souvenier and not even thinking about ever selling it ? After the Red Sox won the 2004 World Series I was beyond appalled when they held a special signing for their great fans at only $160 per sig per player per item and had lines a mile long. I could see $160 for the whole team but per player, regardless of who it was and the fans couldn't get enough, when you think of that $599 to get a signed memento from one of the greatest games of Jeters life doesn't seem so outrageous. Would I pay it ? No, but then again I won't pay $1000 to take my kids to see the Yankees or the Red Sox, or I should say can't justify what used to be a great day has now become a vacation, for most people anyways. I've been priced out of professional sports, on the east coast anyways.......

[HRBAKER]

A souvenir of what really? The balls weren't used in the game. Nothing is to keep Jeter from signing a ball the same way ten years from now (as long as you pay for the inscription I assume).

The reality is that this is what the game and industry has become and how it will stay as long as there is a market for these items. Surely no one is buying a $600 Jeter auto'd ball as an investment.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Not sure Jeff, a memento of hype? I don't get it but judging by the number of employees at Steiner sales are not a problem. Yankee dirt for the price of gold, but it is quality dirt.

[mark evans]

I don't see either the players or Steiner at fault. Nothing unethical going on in my view. It is the fans who drive the market.

[Exhibitman]

I understand David's frustration with the commoditization of autograph collecting but it is seeing the past through rose-colored lenses [and terribly naive] to believe that the elite athletes of the past would not have embraced the current system had it been there. A lot of it comes down to personalities. Jeter falls into the Joe DiMaggio mode ["Gods do not answer letters"; a quote about Williams but aporpos here] of being a distant, regal personality. Having him engage in a 'sterile' signing is probably the only way it will happen; I bet that once his playing days are over he will be the sort who rarely does a show unless he needs the money. Babe Ruth was a big, gregarious personality who seemed to like people and signed a hell of a lot. That's unusual; he could handle it. Sandy Koufax is not. He's a shy man who's found a way to deal with fame and autograph seekers as painlessly as possible. Koufax could be out every weekend collecting big appearance fees and making commercials right and left if he was so inclined. He isn't. He does sign for free, BTW, but only for people he knows [a client who is a childhood "friend of Sandy" from Brooklyn got him to sign and personalize a ball for me several years ago*]. Bob Feller clearly had some personal need to be out there pushing all the time, meeting, greeting and signing away. He may have devalued his autograph to the point where it is almost a nuisance [dammit, Bob, put away the pen], but other than the odd quip about a Feller card not signed by Feller being a condition rarity, I don't hear any real complaining because he did so. I also don't hear anything bad about Stan Musial, who charges pretty good for his autograph [$100 for a flat TTM through his web site] but who delivers a winning personality when he does a show or deals with fans.



* Good story there: I had a Nolan Ryan inscribed signed ball that a cousin who worked for Bristol Meyers got for me during an Advil commercial shoot. When my client told me he was seeing Koufax and asked if I wanted a Koufax signature I asked him to have Koufax sign the same ball with the same inscription. He [client] called me and said "Sandy won't sign. He said 'what the f** do I want to be on a ball with Ryan for?'" It was a joke, of course; he signed it and it is a treasured baseball in my very modest collection.

[mark evans]

I should add to my last comment that star players can almost certainly afford to sign for free in my view and those who do so, if any, are worthy of admiration. I think one of the reasons more players don't sign for free, aside from greed, is due to a cynicism that developed some years ago, and later perhaps fueled by the internet, when it became apparent that a significant percentage of autograph seekers had commercial motives.

[mr2686]

I'm not sure I understand these modern athletes. I hear what Mark is saying and agree that it's probably annoying for a player to signed for an hour or two after a game, only to find several of the items up on ebay. What I don't understand is these guys making millions of dollars a year and then signing at shows for $200 a pop. Why not just announce that all proceeds are going to a certain charity. I'm sure they already give a lot to charity, but they certainly don't need the additional taxable revenue stream coming in. Or how about players that won't sign certain things? Why not sign those things for a premium amount for charity. Rick Monday, whom I respect the heck out of, won't sign the photo of him saving the flag unless it's for a charity auction because he feels he did what he did because it was the right thing to do. Hey, I'm all for that, but he could donate any auto fee...and charge a premium, for anytime he signs that photo.

[packs]

Can someone who is of the opinion that the fans are driving market prices explain their point of view a little more? I just don't see it. If athletes didn't charge, the market would be tiny. You would find the occasional fan purchasing an out of town athlete's signature every once in a while, sure. But i am of the opinion that prices are driven higher the more an athlete charges for their signature. Deceased players do not factor into the equation.

I am also not a hater of the card show. I think signings at card shows are fantastic. It's great to have the opportunity to meet so many otherwise inaccessible players. I do not fault a player at all for charging money for his time at a card show. However, I think the problem of excessive fees is disheartening. Although I don't think its as wide spread as Steiner. I usually only attend the White Plains shows and I usually don't have an issue with the fee any of their guests charge. Many times they have multiple free autograph guests at each show. Great operation.

[mark evans]

I can respond for myself. Steiner/Jeter/Yankees can only charge what fans will pay. If no one pays their asking price, say $500 for a ball, then the price will almost certainly be reduced.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by packs

Can someone who is of the opinion that the fans are driving market prices explain their point of view a little more? I just don't see it. If athletes didn't charge, the market would be tiny. You would find the occasional fan purchasing an out of town athlete's signature every once in a while, sure. But i am of the opinion that prices are driven higher the more an athlete charges for their signature.

Think of it this way. If there was only 1 fan that wanted to pay for 1 autograph from a group of 100 athletes, the price would be zero after the first sale. The athletes would be competing to sell the cheapest signature. However, if there was only 1 athlete signing 1 autograph for 100 fans, there would be a bidding war among the fans for it. The athlete would sell his autograph for the highest price.

It is really about supply and demand. The flip side is if the athlete saturated the market with his signature, he would dilute the market and the price would drop. It takes two to tango.

But the fans do have the ability to drive the market. If no one bought Jeter's dirt, the price would be zero.