Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Pat R]

The more meticulously I look through the journal the more things seem to come together. When I first found out about it on here I printed it out and
since then I have looked through it on several occasions when I was researching other things but over the past few day's I've been taking a much closer look at everything in it.

It's really a shame that many of the t206 pages and others like Red Sun were removed from the journal. Some of them have been sold in auction
so we have images of them but others like Sovereign, Broad Leaf and Drum as far as I know haven't.

Looking at the pages that are available explains some things and adds to a lot of what we do know.

I posted it earlier but here are a couple more things about it that I noticed.


Up until recently the southern leaguers were thought to have been printed in 1910 with the Old Mill backs but in 2018 I found this ad.
OLd Mill Ad.jpg

The August 14 1909 date in that ad coincides with the date on the ledger that says they first started packing and shipping the Old Mill southern leaguers 7/09.

The Old Mill ledger page could also explain why the "exclusive 12" subjects in the 460 only series are very tough with an old Mill back because the ledger page indicates they discontinued packing the Old Mills on 12/14/1910.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The more meticulously I look through the journal the more things seem to come together. When I first found out about it on here I printed it out and
since then I have looked through it on several occasions when I was researching other things but over the past few day's I've been taking a much closer look at everything in it.

It's really a shame that many of the t206 pages and others like Red Sun were removed from the journal. Some of them have been sold in auction
so we have images of them but others like Sovereign, Broad Leaf and Drum as far as I know haven't.

Looking at the pages that are available explains some things and adds to a lot of what we do know.

I posted it earlier but here are a couple more things about it that I noticed.


Up until recently the southern leaguers were thought to have been printed in 1910 with the Old Mill backs but in 2018 I found this ad.
Attachment 460586

The August 14 1909 date in that ad coincides with the date on the ledger that says they first started packing and shipping the Old Mill southern leaguers 7/09.

The Old Mill ledger page could also explain why the "exclusive 12" subjects in the 460 only series are very tough with an old Mill back because the ledger page indicates they discontinued packing the Old Mills on 12/14/1910.

Thank you Pat....for confirming what I posted in my thread regarding the Exclusive 12 cards in the 460-only Series back in 2013. The UZIT backs are almost impossible to find
with these 12 subjects, and the OLD MILL appears to 2nd in line in terms of scarcity.

Furthermore, I also noted then that the T80 cards are extremely difficult to find with OLD MILL backs.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Indeed, these Exclusive 12 cards are difficult with CYCLE 460 backs, and EPDG backs.

My experience collecting back runs of these 12 subjects is that OLD MILL is very tough, and UZIT is virtually impossible.

After I completed my RED HINDU run of these 12 guys, I started the OLD MILL run approx. a year ago and so far I have only these 4 guys......








TED Z
.

[Pat R]

No problem Ted as I said it certainly could explain the difficulty of the
"exclusive 12" subjects with an Old Mill back. But I do have to ask why
do you accept this information from the journal but you won't accept
the absence of the Coupons in it?

[tedzan]

Pat

As I have already said....that undated list of 30 brands (ATC) without POLAR BEAR data indicates to me that it reflects information prior to the introduction of the
POLAR BEAR tobacco cards (circa SPRING 1910).

We cannot ignore this timeline. I will get into this later today, as I have to leave right now.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I told you several times the dates are there, Polar bear isn't and I gave you my opinion why. I have more to post maybe I'll convince you yet.

I'm still waiting to hear from Jeremy since he's the one that completed a set or near set of the type 1 southern Leaguers.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

As I have already said....that undated list of 30 brands (ATC) without POLAR BEAR data indicates to me that it reflects information prior to the introduction of the
POLAR BEAR tobacco cards (circa SPRING 1910).

We cannot ignore this timeline. I will get into this later today, as I have to leave right now.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Here's the Carolina Brights page that was removed from the album and was sold in an auction. The part of the page that had the packing and shipping dates was removed.
ATC Carolina Brights Ledger page 2.jpg


But another Carolina Brights page with cards I'm not familiar with was still in the journal
ATC Carolina Brights Ledger page 1.jpg

Someone crossed it out but on the side it says began packing Ball pictures
Piedmont back backs in Carolina Brights 12/8(or18) 1909 it goes on to say
began packing 2 ball pictures with C.B. backs

ATC Carolina Brights Ledger page 1 - Copy.jpg

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

As I have already said....that undated list of 30 brands (ATC) without POLAR BEAR data indicates to me that it reflects information prior to the introduction of the
POLAR BEAR tobacco cards (circa SPRING 1910).

We cannot ignore this timeline. I will get into this later today, as I have to leave right now.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, I found some more information why Polar Bear probably wouldn't be in the ATC Journal.

It wasn't an ATC brand until 1914
img482.jpg

I also said like Coupon I think it's possible that the Polar Bears weren't printed with the other t206's.

Now I'm not saying this is proof but the Owner of Polar Bear Tobacco Eddie
Wilbern was a Baseball fan who even talked about buying the Brooklyn Dodgers.
img481.jpg

So he could have decided to use the past success of the cigarette inserts to promote his product and also could have been the reason for team changes on Demmitt and O'Hara.

He was known to promote his products in interesting ways.

img483.jpg

[Pat R]

Some more evidence that Polar Bear could have been printed separately and even after t206's is a recently discovered original 150+
find of t206's and around 30 t205's with the 120+ t206's "almost Exclusively" Polar bear.

It seems odd that if they were printed with the t206's that there weren't other brands of t206's in it but there were other brands of t205's which were printed after
the t206's.

https://blog.justcollect.com/blog/pe...ard-collection

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

History of Polar Bear.....and Factory No. 6, 1st District, Middletown, Ohio

Paul Sorg and John Auer began producing cut plug tobacco in Middletown, Ohio, in the late 1870’s. In 1898, Continental Tobacco Company (one of the main
holding companies under the American Tobacco Company umbrella) purchased the Middletown plant. In early 1899, Luhrman & Wilburn Tobacco Company
of Cincinnati (one of the largest scrap tobacco manufacturers) was purchased by Continental. Continental then moved the Luhrman & Wilburn operations to
the Middletown factory. Upon the break-up of ATC in 1911, the plant ownership changed to the P. Lorillard Company, which operated it until 1951.

Note: the owners of the American Tobacco Company and the American Lithographic Company (ALC) , J. B. Duke and J. P. Knapp, respectively were very close
business partners during the years of production of Tobacco cards. The POLAR BEAR cards of the T206 set were printed by ALC during 1910 - 1911.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________

The cards of Demmitt & O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards were printed. The New York versions of Demmitt & O'Hara
are 350-only Series subjects, which were printed prior to the PB press runs.

Circa Summer 1910 timeline is confirmed by the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations....since both of which were printed ONLY with PB backs.

Demmitt & O'Hara were traded during the off-season in 1909. They both started the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. Early May of 1910, both of
them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

This narrow window of their play with their St Louis teams in May 1910 absolutely confirms the timeline of these Demmitt and O'Hara cards to the Summer of 1910.





Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

As I have already said....that undated list of 30 brands (ATC) without POLAR BEAR data indicates to me that it reflects information prior to the introduction of the
POLAR BEAR tobacco cards (circa SPRING 1910).

We cannot ignore this timeline. I will get into this later today, as I have to leave right now.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

While continuing to research the journal I think two of the reasons I posted are why the Polar Bears are not in this journal. That it was a different product
processed at a different facility.

I'm pretty sure this journal was from the Kinney Brothers processing facility. The Posey letters in the journal are the original letters and the carbon copy's
would have been sent to the fifth Ave. facility informing them what was being packed in the products.

Polar Bear falls under the plug tobacco product and I still stand behind my opinion I posted before that it was at most only partially under the control of the
American Tobacco company at that time Polar Bear t206's were printed.

img500.jpg

img482.jpg

[jggames]

Just picked this up from ebay. It’s cool to see the T206 brands, and nothing really turns on this 1912 booklet, but it would be cool to find the 1909-1911, simply to see what the cigarette packs may have said on the front (if it’s not already known).

[gabrinus]

That's cool Jason...Jerry