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  #51  
Old 12-29-2018, 11:58 PM
AddieJoss AddieJoss is offline
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Default T206s

These are my only T206 Coupon backs that I have.
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  #52  
Old 12-30-2018, 06:38 AM
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This is my only Coupon Type-1, and it's another Engel. Why so many of this particular player?

It's not graded, and I don't plan to get it graded because I like to be able to demonstrate how different it is from other T206 cards.

It has back damage in the same place as most of the other Coupons, though it isn't quite as bad.


scan0001.jpg

scan0002.jpg

Last edited by Sean; 12-30-2018 at 01:12 PM.
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  #53  
Old 12-30-2018, 06:59 AM
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Maybe it's just because there are a lot of Yankee/Highlander collectors...and it's a cool pose...is why we see all the engles????
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  #54  
Old 12-30-2018, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Also of the t216's...one of the three is printed on thin paper...yet it's still a T216 Kotton?
Very good point Peter.
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  #55  
Old 12-30-2018, 11:23 AM
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That's kind of my point: the ACC designation T206 reflects a series of decisions based on information available at the time to a group of collectors like us. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with the decision to canonize certain cards as T206 and make others different. The type 1 Coupons seem indistinguishable from T206 from a design standpoint, other than the paper, but we have the Kotton cards as the 'rule' governing paper differences. As for the other white series T213s, well, as has been pointed out already they had the artwork and basically redid the captions and finishes to issue the cards. What company hasn't re-used artwork whenever it could get away with it? T202 was a repurposing of T205 cards with white borders. And how much artwork is shared across T sets?

Don't forget, Camel started its advertising in the teens by deriding companies that spent money on premiums instead of the product itself. In that atmosphere a cut rate re-issue of T206 might have made sense: type 2. Then you have the Federal League and a chance to re-do some captions and issue type 3.
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  #56  
Old 12-30-2018, 11:44 AM
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T214 and T215 have similar designs and T215 has a brown captioned one too. I guess we make those T206 also?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
That's kind of my point: the ACC designation T206 reflects a series of decisions based on information available at the time to a group of collectors like us. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with the decision to canonize certain cards as T206 and make others different. The type 1 Coupons seem indistinguishable from T206 from a design standpoint, other than the paper, but we have the Kotton cards as the 'rule' governing paper differences. As for the other white series T213s, well, as has been pointed out already they had the artwork and basically redid the captions and finishes to issue the cards. What company hasn't re-used artwork whenever it could get away with it? T202 was a repurposing of T205 cards with white borders. And how much artwork is shared across T sets?

Don't forget, Camel started its advertising in the teens by deriding companies that spent money on premiums instead of the product itself. In that atmosphere a cut rate re-issue of T206 might have made sense: type 2. Then you have the Federal League and a chance to re-do some captions and issue type 3.
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  #57  
Old 12-30-2018, 12:38 PM
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I think T214 was issued a few years after the end of the T206 run, so no.

T215 type 1 might be considered, since the time frame seems right, but I don't know enough about the issue to do more than guess at it. Red Cross was in T207 and T219, so who the heck knows.
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  #58  
Old 12-30-2018, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
T214 and T215 have similar designs and T215 has a brown captioned one too. I guess we make those T206 also?
And while we're at it, what should we do with T215 Pirates? Same artwork, brown captions, and perhaps some of them were printed in the same time frame.
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  #59  
Old 12-30-2018, 01:15 PM
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Add em!

Last edited by ullmandds; 12-30-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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  #60  
Old 12-30-2018, 01:17 PM
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Add em!
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  #61  
Old 12-30-2018, 01:18 PM
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Delete, unnecessary.
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Last edited by Sean; 12-30-2018 at 01:20 PM.
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  #62  
Old 12-30-2018, 02:42 PM
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I'll see your Pirate Merkle and raise you this one.



Wait, that doesn't sound right...
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  #63  
Old 12-30-2018, 02:51 PM
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The thing that stands out the most to me is the odd group of subjects used, I think Luke mentioned it earlier. The mix of forty two 350 only subjects
with Twenty Southern Leaguers and the six super prints doesn't fit in with any of the other T206 backs. To me it seems like something that was done after
the plates were used for the T206's. Where does the 1910 date for the T213-1's come from?
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  #64  
Old 12-30-2018, 03:27 PM
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Sounds like a separate regional issue.
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  #65  
Old 12-30-2018, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The thing that stands out the most to me is the odd group of subjects used, I think Luke mentioned it earlier. The mix of forty two 350 only subjects
with Twenty Southern Leaguers and the six super prints doesn't fit in with any of the other T206 backs. To me it seems like something that was done after
the plates were used for the T206's. Where does the 1910 date for the T213-1's come from?
This might be the bit of information that convinces me to not include them in T206?
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  #66  
Old 12-30-2018, 03:44 PM
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I understand both sides of this issue. On Leon's side the Coupons are listed in the ACC as T213 so that's what they are. And T206 is what it is. It's that simple. On the other hand, if the ACC needs to be amended then someone should do it. Until then though, Coupons are going to be T213 because that's what Burdick catalogued them as. If you want to collect them in your T206 set then go ahead. As they say, there's no wrong way to collect right?
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  #67  
Old 12-30-2018, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The thing that stands out the most to me is the odd group of subjects used, I think Luke mentioned it earlier. The mix of forty two 350 only subjects
with Twenty Southern Leaguers and the six super prints doesn't fit in with any of the other T206 backs. To me it seems like something that was done after
the plates were used for the T206's. Where does the 1910 date for the T213-1's come from?
We had this argument about five years ago (and every year since), but at that time Tim Cathey made this same point. The subjects chosen for Coupons did not follow the pattern of any other T206 backs.

Last edited by Sean; 12-30-2018 at 04:23 PM.
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  #68  
Old 12-30-2018, 05:06 PM
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The thing that stands out the most to me is the odd group of subjects used, I think Luke mentioned it earlier. The mix of forty two 350 only subjects
with Twenty Southern Leaguers and the six super prints doesn't fit in with any of the other T206 backs. To me it seems like something that was done after
the plates were used for the T206's. Where does the 1910 date for the T213-1's come from?
Hey guys, this has all been cleared up before. I covered this situation in previous threads. So, I will reprise it here once again.

First, with all due respect to Luke (or Pat), they are appear to be uninformed as they are misleading with the above statement.

The Six Super Prints were simply 350 Series subjects when the 1910 COUPON cards were produced. It was not until later in the game that American Lithographic (ALC) selected
these six subjects from an earlier print run to be Super-Prints. And, ALC made this selection when they started printing the SOVEREIGN 460 cards (circa Summer/Fall 1910). Proof
of this is evident in the SOVEREIGN sub-set in that the Six Super Prints are found with both SOVEREIGN 350 and SOVEREIGN 460 backs, as I am illustrating here......

Furthermore, regarding the Southern Association (20) subjects, I refer you to post #24 in this thread.

Six Super Prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs printed circa Summer/Fall 1910
.
.
............





1910 COUPON printed circa Spring/Summer 1910

.

.









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  #69  
Old 12-30-2018, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hey guys, this has all been cleared up before. I covered this situation in previous threads. So, I will reprise it here once again.

First, with all due respect to Luke (or Pat), they are appear to be uninformed as they are misleading with the above statement.

The Six Super Prints were simply 350 Series subjects when the 1910 COUPON cards were produced. It was not until later in the game that American Lithographic (ALC) selected
these six subjects from an earlier print run to be Super-Prints. And, ALC made this selection when they started printing the SOVEREIGN 460 cards (circa Summer/Fall 1910). Proof
of this is evident in the SOVEREIGN sub-set in that the Six Super Prints are found with both SOVEREIGN 350
and SOVEREIGN 460 backs, as I am illustrating here......

Furthermore, regarding the Southern Association (20) subjects, I refer you to post #24 in this thread.

Six Super Prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs printed circa Summer/Fall 1910
.
.
............





1910 COUPON printed circa Spring/Summer 1910

.

.









TED Z

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All of the 350 only subjects are printed with a Forrest Green back and the
super prints are printed with an Apple Green back.
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  #70  
Old 12-30-2018, 06:28 PM
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Here are 4 Art Fletchers from this series in varying degrees of condition. The best example is an SGC 30 which is high grade for these. SGC 40 is the highest grade I have of any player, although I have some raw nice ones that could get 40 or 50.
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File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneysgc30984.jpg (46.6 KB, 202 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneysgca985.jpg (47.3 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneyp986.jpg (52.7 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneyf987.jpg (52.2 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneysgc30b988.jpg (50.3 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneysgcab989.jpg (49.0 KB, 204 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneypb990.jpg (51.9 KB, 198 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1sweeneyfb991.jpg (47.2 KB, 200 views)
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  #71  
Old 12-30-2018, 07:17 PM
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
All of the 350 only subjects are printed with a Forrest Green back and the
super prints are printed with an Apple Green back.

No kidding.....Pat

I think my SOVEREIGN 350 and SOVEREIGN 460 scans of the six super prints in post #68 clearly show the apple green vs. darker green backs, respectively.

Here is an excerpt from my thread of which I identified all 66 subjects that were printed with the "apple green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs. Back in 2007, Art Martineau first noted
that certain SOVEREIGN 350 cards had a lighter shade of GREEN backs than other SOVEREIGN 350 cards. Initially, this phenomena was mystifying to all of us. By Nov 2007, I
had completed my all-SOVEREIGN set, and this enabled me to identify the 66 cards with the apple green backs..

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected for the 350/460 series. American Litho printed
the backs of these 66 cards using an apple green colored ink (instead of the deep green seen on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards).
For more info on this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series
Here is my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects (Super-Prints are double-printed **)



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v











** Note
I show the super-prints Double-Printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the 6 super-prints were D-P.


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  #72  
Old 12-30-2018, 09:16 PM
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
Here are 4 Art Fletchers from this series in varying degrees of condition. The best example is an SGC 30 which is high grade for these. SGC 40 is the highest grade I have of any player, although I have some raw nice ones that could get 40 or 50.
Hi Rob

The Grading Co.'s can be "brutal" grading these 1910 COUPON cards....and, especially PSA.
SGC 40 is the highest grade that I, also, have seen of any of these cards.

I thought I'd get a nice grade on this Chance. It doesn't have any creases (or subtle problems). When I complained to PSA, they remarked: "that's your opinion, we see it differently".

My mistake for submitting it to PSA.


.


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  #73  
Old 12-30-2018, 10:43 PM
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It's a good point about the "Super Prints" not necessarily being a separate group in 1910. That's certainly possible. Are there any theories as to how the Super Prints were printed? Seems possible/likely to me that those 6 poses were on their own sheet. That would make it easy for them to be printed with the large number of backs they appear with.
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  #74  
Old 12-30-2018, 10:46 PM
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Nice Evers Ryan!

That Willett is a beauty Ted. I am guessing it would grade a 2.5 or 3.
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  #75  
Old 12-31-2018, 12:22 AM
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Ted, that's awesome. I did not realize that you had found another T213-1 Chance and an upgrade to boot. Way to go. That card is near mint for this series. Here's an SGC 40 Rube Marquard...
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File Type: jpg t213-1marquardf671.jpg (60.5 KB, 187 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1marquardb676.jpg (64.2 KB, 189 views)
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  #76  
Old 12-31-2018, 12:34 AM
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That Marquard is super nice. Also, you have 4 Fletchers? That's insane!
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  #77  
Old 12-31-2018, 12:45 AM
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Thanks, Luke. It's a long story. I bought up a bunch of these in the 90's. I only need a T213-1 Bob Rhoades to complete the set.
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File Type: jpg t213-1starr.jpg (76.0 KB, 194 views)
File Type: jpg t213-1starrb.jpg (69.4 KB, 193 views)
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  #78  
Old 12-31-2018, 01:08 AM
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That's incredible, congrats!
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  #79  
Old 12-31-2018, 08:03 AM
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
Ted, that's awesome. I did not realize that you had found another T213-1 Chance and an upgrade to boot. Way to go. That card is near mint for this series. Here's an SGC 40 Rube Marquard...

Rob

After you and I did a deal for my original Chance some years ago, I came across this Chance and I could not pass it up, although the price for it was "steep".
I was very disappointed with the PSA's grade on it. Eventually, I'll crack it out and submit it to SGC.

Gee, you've been hunting for that Rhoades for many years now. It's scarcity appears to be like his T3 card (which is absolutely tough to find).

Good luck, and Happy New Year to you.


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  #80  
Old 12-31-2018, 10:46 AM
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
It's a good point about the "Super Prints" not necessarily being a separate group in 1910. That's certainly possible. Are there any theories as to how the Super Prints were printed? Seems possible/likely to me that those 6 poses were on their own sheet. That would make it easy for them to be printed with the large number of backs they appear with.
My theory is that this simulated sheet which I constructed* is representative of one of the early 350 Series print runs comprising of 48 subjects (circa early Spring 1910).
And interestingly, this configuration coincides with the 48 - the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set.

Subsequently, ALC selected the 6 subjects that we refer to as the "Super Prints"**. When ALC included these 6 guys in the 350/460 Series, they Double-Printed them on
sheets of T206's. This is evident on numerous surveys of T206 cards.

Early 350 Series configuration (circa early Spring 1910)




Note * Placement of cards on this configuration are randomly arranged.

Note ** Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in
the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".


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  #81  
Old 12-31-2018, 11:15 AM
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Ted, do you still have the Chance from which you upgraded? If so, let me know if you ever go to sell/trade it.
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  #82  
Old 12-31-2018, 11:59 AM
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Default Ted....

I believe the type 1's should have been included, but just weren't.....which sucks.....now they have just been classified with the 2's and 3's and grouped together unfortunately

I'm afraid it probably will always stay that way
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  #83  
Old 12-31-2018, 02:39 PM
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Ted, do you still have the Chance from which you upgraded? If so, let me know if you ever go to sell/trade it.
Ryan

Rob and I traded for my first Chance some years ago.

Have a Happy New Year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Rob

After you and I did a deal for my original Chance some years ago, I came across this Chance and I could not pass it up, although the price for it was "steep".
I was very disappointed with the PSA's grade on it. Eventually, I'll crack it out and submit it to SGC.


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  #84  
Old 12-31-2018, 03:59 PM
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Default Love me some SL Type 1 Coupons!

Ted - Great thread and as time marches on, the consensus is growing that Coupon Type 1's are in fact the same as the other T206 brands from 1909-11. By the way, the grades don't matter on these delicate beauties as the grading companies are all over the board. I have several that are vastly under graded and some that are over graded. I do like them in the holder for protection since their so fragile. I hope you don't mind me tossing some Southern Leaguer's in as this thread is completely void of them minus the Ted Breitenstein! Here is a player from each of the SL Teams...
Happy New Year Everyone!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Thornton 1.jpg (73.3 KB, 341 views)
File Type: jpg Thornton 2.jpg (74.8 KB, 348 views)
File Type: jpg Smith 1.jpg (71.8 KB, 349 views)
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  #85  
Old 12-31-2018, 04:50 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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Long shot, but does anyone recall a find or original collection where there were type 1 Coupons mixed with the other T206 brands. That would help cement their printing and distribution to the same time frame. I have purchased a couple of sizeable original collections of T206's, one of which was 90% Sovereign(all backs) indicating the smoker collector was a hardcore Sovereign cigarettes devotee.. There were a few other brands mixed in, but not many.
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  #86  
Old 12-31-2018, 04:57 PM
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i bet Ted knows of one he can share with us
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Last edited by RedsFan1941; 12-31-2018 at 04:58 PM.
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  #87  
Old 12-31-2018, 05:12 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBaseball View Post
Ted - Great thread and as time marches on, the consensus is growing that Coupon Type 1's are in fact the same as the other T206 brands from 1909-11. By the way, the grades don't matter on these delicate beauties as the grading companies are all over the board. I have several that are vastly under graded and some that are over graded. I do like them in the holder for protection since their so fragile. I hope you don't mind me tossing some Southern Leaguer's in as this thread is completely void of them minus the Ted Breitenstein! Here is a player from each of the SL Teams...
Happy New Year Everyone!!
Jeremy

I think your observation is correct, we may be winning the cause...." the consensus is growing that Coupon Type 1's are in fact the same as the other T206 brands from 1909-11 "

And, do I mind you posting some Southern Association guys here ? You have to be kidding, of course not....bring them all on.

What I do mind is that you got me interested in these 1910 COUPON cards quite a number of years ago

And every time I post something on these scarce gems, trying to inform the hobby, I have to dodge a lot of "flak" from some of these guys on this forum.
My fighter plane is riddled with bullets

Take care good buddy, and a Happy New Year to you and your family. I betcha your sons are looking forward to the BB season.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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  #88  
Old 12-31-2018, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post
Long shot, but does anyone recall a find or original collection where there were type 1 Coupons mixed with the other T206 brands. That would help cement their printing and distribution to the same time frame. I have purchased a couple of sizeable original collections of T206's, one of which was 90% Sovereign(all backs) indicating the smoker collector was a hardcore Sovereign cigarettes devotee.. There were a few other brands mixed in, but not many.
That's a good point Scott? I'm not super-intuned to t206...but I used to be! I can't recall a "find" of original cards that contained coupons????
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  #89  
Old 12-31-2018, 07:33 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post
Long shot, but does anyone recall a find or original collection where there were type 1 Coupons mixed with the other T206 brands. That would help cement their printing and distribution to the same time frame. I have purchased a couple of sizeable original collections of T206's, one of which was 90% Sovereign(all backs) indicating the smoker collector was a hardcore Sovereign cigarettes devotee.. There were a few other brands mixed in, but not many.
Hi Scott

Circa 2009 there was the "Louisiana find" of about 100 cards including T213-2 & 3, T214, T215 1 & 2, and T207's with RED CROSS backs (including Lowdermilk with RED CROSS back).
The timeline for this group of cards ranges from 1910 to 1919. And, what to me is most notable in this collection, is it does NOT include a single 1910 COUPON card.

I cannot think of any collection of any size that has included 1910 COUPON cards in my experience collecting vintage cards since 1977.


Scott, regarding your..... " I have purchased a couple of sizeable original collections of T206's, one of which was 90% Sovereign(all backs) ".....was this an original collection, and if so,
where did it originate from in the US ?

TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 12-31-2018 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #90  
Old 12-31-2018, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
An often repeated excuse from the naysayers...."It's the thinner cardboard stock which the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that disqualifies
them from being considered T206's.
" This thinking is really ridiculous. My question to you naysayers is this....Then how come you don't DISCARD
the AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) cards, since their card dimensions are inconsistent with all the other T206's ? ?

Well of course that is as ridiculous as the above comment regarding the 1910 COUPON's. It's all the same difference. Both AB and 1910 COUPON
cards differ from the other T206's due to Cigarette pack factors. American Lithographic trimmed the AB cards in anticipation of ATC's intention of
narrowing down AB cigarette packs (however, this never occurred). And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.
Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.

Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......







P.S. Jeff Burdick's accomplishments in our hobby (Sportscards & Non-Sportscards) are amazing. And, if he had the benefit of the Internet,
I have no doubt that the 1910 COUPON cards would have been catalogued alongwith the 15 other basic T-brands in the T206 set.



TED Z

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Jon has a picture of a coupon pack on his site.

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm
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  #91  
Old 12-31-2018, 08:40 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Jon has a picture of a coupon pack on his site.

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Pat

We have gone thru this before....that pack in Jon's pix contained T213-2 or T213-3 cards. It did NOT contain 1910 COUPON cards. Think about it, the T-cards of that
era served the purpose of stiffening the cigarette pack. Two cards, one on each side of the pack were inserted.

There's no way the thin cardboard stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that could serve as stiffeners.

Incidentally, years ago I discussed with Jon the possibility of a cigarette pack containing 1910 COUPON cards, and if I recall correctly: Jon said that none were found.


Furthermore, a pack designed for 1910 COUPON cards would have had Quotation Marks on the brand name as the backs of these cards are printed with. The quotes
signify a new Tobacco brand which is in the process of getting a Registered Trademark.
Here are examples of this....

............ .






Therefore, continue your search for a Coupon pack that is labelled..... "COUPON".

Please contact me when you do find such a pack.


TED Z

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  #92  
Old 12-31-2018, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

We have gone thru this before....that pack in Jon's pix contained T213-2 or T213-3 cards. It did NOT contain 1910 COUPON cards. Think about it, the T-cards of that
era served the purpose of stiffening the cigarette pack. Two cards, one on each side of the pack were inserted.

There's no way the thin cardboard stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that could serve as stiffeners.

Incidentally, years ago I discussed with Jon the possibility of a cigarette pack containing 1910 COUPON cards, and if I recall correctly: Jon said that none were found.


Furthermore, a pack designed for 1910 COUPON cards would have had Quotation Marks on the brand name as the backs of these cards are printed with. The quotes
signify a new Tobacco brand which is in the process of getting a Registered Trademark.
Here are examples of this....

............ .






Therefore, continue your search for a Coupon pack that is labelled..... "COUPON".
Please contact me when you do find such a pack.


TED Z

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Will do Ted, and you keep up the search for the reprints with impossible
backs and stating your opinions and theory's as facts.
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  #93  
Old 12-31-2018, 09:42 PM
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Hey Pat

Wishing you a very Happy New Year.

Perhaps we can try to enjoy 2019 without any sarcasm on this forum.


TED Z
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  #94  
Old 01-01-2019, 08:33 AM
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Fair enough Ted. So back to the discussion the coupon carton you refer to in
Jeremy's post doesn't have the quotation marks either.

Coupon carton.jpg

and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from.
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  #95  
Old 01-01-2019, 10:04 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Fair enough Ted. So back to the discussion the coupon carton you refer to in
Jeremy's post doesn't have the quotation marks either.

Attachment 339249

and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from.

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.
Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.
Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......

.

Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

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  #96  
Old 01-01-2019, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.


Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

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How is the pack on Jon's site any different than the carton?

In your thread title you ask "what say you" and when I posted my opinion
you stated that I'm uniformed and that I'm misleading people.

I don't care if people consider them T206's but in my opinion there is more
evidence to support how Burdick catalogued them and not enough to change
it.

Yes they have the same image as T206's but the same group of subjects
are not found on any other backs except piedmont's which were used on
every subject with the exception of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis.

The same T206 images were also used for type 2 and 3 and the Chief Meyers
T213-3 card depicting him with New Haven would have been printed in 1919 or
later, eight years after the T206 printing supposedly ended. So they either
made new plates or used the T206 plates after their printing ended.
When I look at the group of subjects in the T213-1's it seems plausible
that's what they did with them.

Do you have a copy of that newspaper clipping and does it mention
anything about baseball pictures?
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  #97  
Old 01-01-2019, 07:30 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
How is the pack on Jon's site any different than the carton?
It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I don't care if people consider them T206's but in my opinion there is more
evidence to support how Burdick catalogued them and not enough to change
it.

Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Do you have a copy of that newspaper clipping and does it mention anything about baseball pictures?
The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
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  #98  
Old 01-01-2019, 08:06 PM
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I have been searching past threads. I did find one from 2009 where Jamie Hull
questioned the 1910 date but no one mentioned a Coupon newspaper clipping.
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  #99  
Old 01-01-2019, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example...…

.





Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it.

"T213-1"......1910

T213-2...…….1914-1916

T213-3...…….1916-1919




The newspaper clipping was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The date is circa late 1908, or early 1909. I cannot seem to find it (I read it at least 10 years ago).
You find it, you are good at searching for things.


Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread
have more of an open mind.


TED Z
.
Post #59 in this thread has a 1908 newspaper clipping from the New Orleans Times Picayune
that mentions Coupon cigarettes but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Picayune

Last edited by Pat R; 01-01-2019 at 09:27 PM.
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  #100  
Old 01-01-2019, 09:47 PM
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Interesting how the clipping about the contest also has the "Coupon" in quotes. Pat, nice job finding the thread.
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