Wagner??

[Forever Young]

Attached is a September 18th, 1908 photo of Bresnahan Catching against a "lefty" batter. Is this the only known photo of Honus Wagner batting left handed? What are your thoughts?

[David Atkatz]

I'm not a Wagner expert. Was he known to have batted lefthanded?

[howard38]

/

[mr2686]

I found this online and assume they were talking about this photo since the photo itself did not come up. Take it for what it's worth:
Larry Larse at a Simnasium.com forum posted this Photo of Hall-of-Famer, Honus Wagner, a right handed hitter, batting left handed. Hall of Fame catcher Roger Bresnahan is also shown in this photo, making it even more disirable. This photo was shown to SABR (The Society for American Baseball Research), where both Wagner and Bresnahan were identified in the photo. Apparently, Wagner did, on very rare occasions, bat left handed out of frustration, when he was having a particularly bad day at the plate. This is the only known photo of the “Flying Dutchman” hitting from the left side. This at bat was captured at the Polo Grounds during a Giants-Pirates game on Sept. 18, 1908.

I found that here: http://www.halfwaytoconcord.com/honu...g-left-handed/

[mr2686]

Ben, is this one you just picked up?

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I found this online and assume they were talking about this photo since the photo itself did not come up. Take it for what it's worth:
Larry Larse at a Simnasium.com forum posted this Photo of Hall-of-Famer, Honus Wagner, a right handed hitter, batting left handed. Hall of Fame catcher Roger Bresnahan is also shown in this photo, making it even more disirable. This photo was shown to SABR (The Society for American Baseball Research), where both Wagner and Bresnahan were identified in the photo. Apparently, Wagner did, on very rare occasions, bat left handed out of frustration, when he was having a particularly bad day at the plate. This is the only known photo of the “Flying Dutchman” hitting from the left side. This at bat was captured at the Polo Grounds during a Giants-Pirates game on Sept. 18, 1908.

I found that here: http://www.halfwaytoconcord.com/honu...g-left-handed/

Wow, if that story proves true then it's a fantastic piece.

[Lordstan]

From the side view, the face does look like Hans, but I am surprised that he is that slender across the shoulder.
Great pic Ben.

[repsher]

I was watching this one on ebay. I wasn't sure who was in the photo. I put my bid in at $28. I was sniped.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=221057149168

[Forever Young]

David..Wags did bat lefty at times.. ck this out..read the last paragraph about Wagner here:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=2047,525889

The same note that a reviewer makes about his biography:

"Although there is a tendency to think that Wagner could hit any pitcher who ever lived, he tells of one hurler, Jack Taylor, who gave him more trouble than any other. So much trouble, that Wagner once turned around and batted left-handed against the right-handed Taylor. Although Wagner says he "swung like a woman" he also punched the ball over the first base bag for a double. Other anecdotes include the time Jack Murray of the Giants made a game-saving catch by a flash of lightning, a bit on the game (and the box score) that clinched the 1901 pennant, Bill Klem tossing Clarke from a game for saying he was "a model umpire," and much more."

Mike.. I did purchase this yes. Either way, it is a beautiful photo I thought. If it is Wagner, then it is really special.

[bobbvc]

The batter in this photo has been identified as both Wagner and Owen Wilson at different times. I tend to think it more likely to be Wilson, who had a similar nose to Wagner but was also listed at 6' 2", 185 pounds. Bresnahan was 5' 9" 200 lbs, similar to Wagner's 5' 10 1/2" and probably 200-210 lbs. by 1908. Batter looks quite a bit taller than the catcher in this photo (tough to tell because they are both slightly bent over). I do have a photo of Wagner batting left in a pre game photo, but it won't load at this time. Not positive, but I'm giving 3-1 odds it not being Wagner.

[jimhopkins82]

Hey, is this the same picture? http://www.retrosnapshots.com/sports...-york-5x7.html

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

The batter in this photo has been identified as both Wagner and Owen Wilson at different times.

Who identified it as Wilson? Where is it published?

[yanks12025]

Why's he look smaller compared to other Wagner photos from 1908?

[mybestbretts]

What a great photo. Love it! Also love the mystery surounding it, hope
it turns out to be the real thing.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Why's he look smaller compared to other Wagner photos from 1908?

What photos are you referring to?

[thxforthebp]

I am not claiming to be a Wagner expect but after reviewing the photo if I were a betting man I would put my money on that it is not Honus Wagner. If you compare what you can see of the batters face the small amount that you can alongside a more recent card showing Owen Wilsons face the similarities are striking although his nose is similar to Wagners, it has more of a pronounced hook to the tip much like the batter. The other facts that lead me to the conclusion that is most likely not Wagner is a comparison of the batters legs. The photos I have reviewed of full body shots of Wagner show that he has a thicker build broader shoulders as stated by others, but he has thicker calves than the batter as well. Know to be barrel chested if this was Wagner is almost like a pre and post steroid allegation Barry Bonds comparison of the two different players in question. The batters build is simply too small to be Wagner.
Attached are photos for comparison

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Who identified it as Wilson? Where is it published?

There are 4 books on Wagner, 3 of which are biographies. Also Lieb's Pittsburgh Pirates, and a couple SABR Pubs. Not sure where I read it, but in one of those, probably 10 or more years ago. I asked one of those authors to chime in with his opinion, as he posts on this board from time to time.

[deebro041]

I was going to use this photo for my avatar, great photo! Wish i had seen it come up for auction.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by thxforthebp

I am not claiming to be a Wagner expect but after reviewing the photo if I were a betting man I would put my money on that it is not Honus Wagner. If you compare what you can see of the batters face the small amount that you can alongside a more recent card showing Owen Wilsons face the similarities are striking although his nose is similar to Wagners, it has more of a pronounced hook to the tip much like the batter. The other facts that lead me to the conclusion that is most likely not Wagner is a comparison of the batters legs. The photos I have reviewed of full body shots of Wagner show that he has a thicker build broader shoulders as stated by others, but he has thicker calves than the batter as well. Know to be barrel chested if this was Wagner is almost like a pre and post steroid allegation Barry Bonds comparison of the two different players in question. The batters build is simply too small to be Wagner.
Attached are photos for comparison

I hear you on the bulkier pics but not the nose. The batters nose looks nothing like wilson's to me. Below is a 1908 Wagner without a big sweater on. His calves look pretty much the same. http://ourgame.mlblogs.com/2012/03/1...etrics-part-i/

[Runscott]

This is the only comparable 'left side' photo of Wagner I could find, and it resembles Ben's picture a lot:



Also, from a common-sense perspective, it's unlikely a photographer would have set up on this side for a right-handed hitter, especially Wagner - taking a photograph involved more preparation back then, so the photographer would have wanted to be on the correct side. He was probably expecting Wagner to be batting right-handed and got surprised. Given the 'wrong side' set-up, to me that builds a better case for it being Wagner.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This is the only comparable 'left side' photo of Wagner I could find, and it resembles Ben's picture a lot:



Also, from a common-sense perspective, it's unlikely a photographer would have set up on this side for a right-handed hitter, especially Wagner - taking a photograph involved more preparation back then, so the photographer would have wanted to be on the correct side. He was probably expecting Wagner to be batting right-handed and got surprised. Given the 'wrong side' set-up, to me that builds a better case for it being Wagner.

Thanks Scott! This is great feedback!! There are a lot of no votes without reasons. I have seen nothing to dispute sabr's findings thus far.

[bobbvc]

Can you scan the back of the photo? Looks like they mention Bresnahan but not Wagner, at least from the scan available on the Ebay listing. Looks like "Sul(?) at bat" below the Culver sticker.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

The batter in this photo has been identified as both Wagner and Owen Wilson at different times. I tend to think it more likely to be Wilson, who had a similar nose to Wagner but was also listed at 6' 2", 185 pounds. Bresnahan was 5' 9" 200 lbs, similar to Wagner's 5' 10 1/2" and probably 200-210 lbs. by 1908. Batter looks quite a bit taller than the catcher in this photo (tough to tell because they are both slightly bent over). I do have a photo of Wagner batting left in a pre game photo, but it won't load at this time. Not positive, but I'm giving 3-1 odds it not being Wagner.

Own Wilson was in Wedding Crashers, I don't think that looks like him.....however....

I don't see a date on here, how did u get that?

Does anyone have pix of the Pirates sox from that season, the stripes on it could confirm if it's a Pitt player or not.

That could read "Gill at bat"....although Gill was a righty as well.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Own Wilson was in Wedding Crashers, I don't think that looks like him.....however....

I don't see a date on here, how did u get that?

Does anyone have pix of the Pirates sox from that season, the stripes on it could confirm if it's a Pitt player or not.

The date has been established/ stamped on original photo which also corresponds to sabr and loc.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I do not believe the person in the original photo is Wagner. The batter in question has a larger, more egg shaped head. Look at the distance from his ears to the back of his head... Much more than the picture of Wagner above.

[Shoeless Moe]

I vote for Wagner....

looks like a terrible stance, so makes sense it's someone who turned around....any of u play ball and flip to the other side.....that pretty much is your stance.

Although in the old days they had some pretty bad stances.....so....

[Shoeless Moe]

and it looks like the ump & catcher are smirking, maybe laughing cuz Wagner said we are getting swept and I have done nothing from the right side today.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Can you scan the back of the photo? Looks like they mention Bresnahan but not Wagner, at least from the scan available on the Ebay listing. Looks like "Sul(?) at bat" below the Culver sticker.

Same photo.. The person writing on photo might not have a clue after it was developed. The library of congress doesn't mention anyone either. I have no idea what that word is.. Not sure if the person Who inscribed it did either.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I do not believe the person in the original photo is Wagner. The batter in question has a larger, more egg shaped head. Look at the distance from his ears to the back of his head... Much more than the picture of Wagner above.

The picture of the head is facing away in the original vs towards the camera in this.. Completely diff angle when viewing the head and ear.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

The picture of the head is facing away in the original vs towards the camera in this.. Completely diff angle when viewing the head and ear.

Yes, I took that into account. The known Wagner is a straight side shot. The unknown is rotated slightly. Not nearly enough to account for difference in head shape, IMO. Look at the difference in how the hat fits the back of his head.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

and it looks like the ump & catcher are smirking, maybe laughing cuz Wagner said we are getting swept and I have done nothing from the right side today.

I can see the catcher kind of smirking, but the ump looks like he's shouting something.

[Mark]

I think the nose belongs to Fred Clarke.

[CW]

I can't decide. It's hard to discern the width of the shoulders because it looks like the batter is twisting his body.

Maybe a clue lies in the socks? Does another pic of Wagner exist with similar socks?

Here's a closer view...

[yanks12025]

How would the shoes decide it's Wagner? I'm sure the socks were issued with the uniforms, so then all Pirates players would have the same type of socks.

And how did the SABR decide it was Wagner?

[CW]

The socks won't decide it's Wagner, but it could be a clue.

[Wite3]

He means the way the socks are worn...some players wore their pants longer, socks down, etc.

Joshua

PS I vote not wagner...sure with I could read the inscription...sul at bat still does not make sense because sullivan is a righty also.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Wite3

He means the way the socks are worn...some players wore their pants longer, socks down, etc.

Joshua

PS I vote not wagner...sure with I could read the inscription...sul at bat still does not make sense because sullivan is a righty also.

I am trying to be objective(seeing as I have the photo). I would obviously love it to be Wagner(no doubt). I definitely see nothing that disputes it being Wagner other than simple opinions. The biggest arument is the batter's build(not sure it is off). Everyone has their opinion but I am sure SABR had some reasoning why they deemed it Wagner.

As far as the writing on the back goes, I crossed that to everyone batting in those two games and nothing makes sense. Therefore, I dismiss it completely as anyone in culver after it was taken could have guessed/made a mistake etc. Again, the Library of Congress doesn't even say who it is. It would have been much easier if the names would have been engraved in the negative like many of the BAINS. Oh well.. the controversy continues. Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions.

[mordecaibrown]

Personally, I think it looks like Fred Clarke. Clarke batted left handed and was on the Pirates in 1908 (in my experience - the simplest and most likely answer is usually the right one).

I have included a picture of Clarke batting (unfortunately - it is from his front side). To me the stance looks the same as the original photo - left arm tucked in, leg position, and he has a prominent nose as well.

I hope it can be proven to be Wagner for the owner - that would be a cool item.

But in my opinion its Fred Clarke.

Andy

[Mark]

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

Personally, I think it looks like Fred Clarke. Clarke batted left handed and was on the Pirates in 1908 (in my experience - the simplest and most likely answer is usually the right one).

I have included a picture of Clarke batting (unfortunately - it is from his front side). To me the stance looks the same as the original photo - left arm tucked in, leg position, and he has a prominent nose as well.

I hope it can be proven to be Wagner for the owner - that would be a cool item.

But in my opinion its Fred Clarke.

Andy

+1

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

The biggest arument is the batter's build(not sure it is off). Everyone has their opinion but I am sure SABR had some reasoning why they deemed it Wagner.

Having been involved in photo ID for a number of relatively recent SABR publications, I can tell you that in the past SABR has misidentified many photos.

That said, there are a few specific facial similarities between the batter and Wagner that can be pointed out, so it may be him. With the reference photos I have at hand, I can't be sure. Some very clear high quality profiles of Wagner would help.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I do not believe the person in the original photo is Wagner. The batter in question has a larger, more egg shaped head. Look at the distance from his ears to the back of his head... Much more than the picture of Wagner above.... The unknown is rotated slightly. Not nearly enough to account for difference in head shape, IMO.....

No - the difference in angle is substantial. It would be very difficult even for a forensic expert meaningfully compare the ear-to-back-of-head distances in those two photos.

[henson1855]

I am not sure if these will help for reference or not but I will post them.

[thxforthebp]

The post regarding Fred Clarke has some weight to it, I felt it was possibly Wilson but here is a high quality of Clarke batting and it also has alot of similarities. This is a little bit higher quality than the small photo of Clarke batting.

[bmarlowe1]

I would make a case that the batter can be Wagner as follows, though I will admit it bothers me that the batter's belt buckle is way over on his right side - not common for Wagner. In any case, there is no indication from feature comparison that he's not Wagner.

I'll also add that the poll question is flawed - there is no check box for "it can be Wagner."

[Mark]

It appears that Wagner had a prominent bridge, which I don't see in the photo in question. How about Roy Thomas? Or Lefty Leifield? Or the switching hitting infielder with a high OBP Charlie Starr?

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Mark

It appears that Wagner had a prominent bridge, which I don't see in the photo in question. How about Roy Thomas? Or Lefty Leifield? Or the switching hitting infielder with a high OBP Charlie Starr?

The prominent bridge is just below the orange arrow in all 3 photos.The change in slope that occurs at that point as it moves towards the spot between the eyes is visible in the center photo. It doesn't (and shouldn't) look exactly the same as in the other two photos because the viewpoint is very much below and behind his head.

The Thomas and Leifield noses don't match. I don't have a good enough image of Starr for comparison.

[Shoeless Moe]

How about adding one choice;

voted for Wagner now thinks it's Clarke.

100% it's clarke now the ear lobe confirms it and the nose is closer to his as well. Not to mention Wagner had a lot of gray hair.

CLARKE!

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

How about adding one choice;

voted for Wagner now thinks it's Clarke.

100% it's clarke now the ear lobe confirms it and the nose is closer to his as well. Not to mention Wagner had a lot of gray hair.

CLARKE!

I thought it would be obvious enough from what I posted, but the batter vs. Clarke noses are markedly different in both size and shape. Both Wagner and the batter had enormous noses. The batter can't possibly be Clarke.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

How about adding one choice;

voted for Wagner now thinks it's Clarke.

100% it's clarke now the ear lobe confirms it and the nose is closer to his as well. Not to mention Wagner had a lot of gray hair.

CLARKE!

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I thought it would be obvious enough from what I posted, but the batter vs. Clarke noses are markedly different in both size and shape. It can't possibly be Clarke.

Hey Ben. Cancel that request for adding one more choice to the poll.

[drc]

There's an old saying with baseball photos (which means I said it once three years ago). It goes 100% sure is, and 90% is the same as isn't. This in particular applied to 1800s tintypes and such where the question was was that anonymous guy in a baseball-like uniform really a baseball player. There were cases where we'd say "If he was holding a baseball and a bat we'd be sure he was a baseball player, but he isn't so we can't be sure."