Are many of the 19th Century Baseballs being sold recently fakes?

[prewarsports]

I am not accusing any one person in general of anything but wanted to throw this out there for discussion. From about 1999-2010 I bet only maybe 4-5 Lemon Peel or Belt Style Baseballs from the 19th century would appear on ebay a year as they are VERY rare. Over the last year or two I have nopticed a disturbing trend where other memorabilia is drying up, but for some reason old 19th century Baseballs are coming out of the woodowork. I believe MANY of these are being made now with old materials. I believe people are taking old leather, and old string (each of which is easy to find on book bindings for the leather and old string is even easier to find or lots of other sources) and wrapping old baseballs in the material, artificially aging it and passing them off as real. So, while the materials themselves are old, the item is of a modern construction.

Once again, I am not singling any one person out, but the recent increase in these items on ebay has had me thinking this was going on for a few years and my gut tells me this is happening.

Anyone else had similar thoughts when searching on ebay seeing the 40-50 Lemon Peel or Belt Style Baseballs on ebay over the last 12 months? It is literally a 10X increase in these items over the years while other memorabilia is drying up by 10X.

Thoughts?

Rhys

[drc]

I had in passing noticed the increase of those balls for sale, including super rare types like the belt ball, but don't collect them so didn't think much about the issue. But, yes, the population increase did stand out to me.

Off hand and as someone who can barely sew a hole in his jeans, I wonder if you can date the sewing. I would think the the stress and strain over a century would show wear and signs that wouldn't appear on recent sewing.

[william_9]

I agree, there are some on ebay right now that are very suspicious.

[Runscott]

Rhys, I have had the same thoughts. Too many of late, and as you say, easy enough to recreate - seems much easier than duplicating a Ruth ball.

[BrandonG]

Originally Posted by william_9

I agree, there are some on ebay right now that are very suspicious.

+1

[khkco4bls]

Gees baseballs,autos,what next gloves etc. Maybe its time to sell. As popeye once said"its all I can take I can't takes no more"

[cliftons8]

Could you guys give some reasons for your concerns? Please help a fellow collector on what to look for.
Thanks for you time,
Mike

[packs]

I think what they're saying is that there are too many baseballs than there could reasonably be given that they are all over 100 years old and handmade.

[william_9]

I don't necessarily agree that 19c baseballs are exceptionally rare. They are by no means common, but they're out there. What I've been seeing is an increase in 19c styles that don't add up in terms of wear and tear. On the one hand, they were handmade and homemade using existing material, usually from items that had exceeded their usefulness. You would expect overall wear. That characteristic is usually present on eBay but there doesn't seem to be any secondary wear from use as a baseball. In other words, all the wear is consistent across the surface and it is seemingly unaffected by the core and stitching which create natural high spots. Keep in mind the fact that it is likely to be the only ball in use for days or weeks on end. Doesn't add up to me.

[BigJJ]

If you take away the c.1850-1900 cricket and polo balls being presented as lemonpeel baseballs, you eliminate about a third.

Even with this large number removed from consideration, I agree there have been too many of late. And I do think someone is constructing out there. And in my opinion, they are recreating local-made children's four piece lemon peel balls, with all, or mostly all, external stitching.

Every kid was playing baseball throughout the country, and with mostly local-made balls, made with leftover leather scraps. Most of these were four lemon wedges, four separate piees of leather, sewn together. The professionally made lemonpeels of course were made of one piece of leather, consisting of a circle with four wedges. The professionally made are larger as they were almost exlusively made for adults, and more specifically, the urban baseball clubs. There are large older children/adult local-made, four piece, lemonpeels as well of course. This is what most suburban/rural/soldiers etc, all but the more urban baseball clubs, were using pre 1875. I have one of these larger four piece locals. It has three interior sewn seams.

There ought to be many many surviving smaller child lemon peels, with four wedges and a good amount of easy exterior stitching, as every child was playing baseball thoughout the country with such rudimentary balls, and I do think most of these that come to market are good. But I too have a feeling that in the past year, too many of these rudimentary, four piece, exterior stitched, children's size balls have come to market.

I am told that some post 1900 string will fluorescence under UV and that this may be a definitive sign of using more modern string. Obviously does not assist if someone is repurposing pre 1900 string.

Would love to learn any other detective tips.

[cliftons8]

Will anyone post examples of good Lemon peels and of those thought or known to be more recently made? I don't own any lemon peels or belt balls but love 19th century memorabilia, and am trying to learn before I buy.
Thanks again,
Mike

[ruth-gehrig]

I was looking at the belt ball that ended today on ebay and thought the same thing about 19th century baseballs popping up on ebay more often. It would in interesting to know the definitive test of whether a ball is modernly made using old materials - if that test exists

[BrandonG]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

I was looking at the belt ball that ended today on ebay and thought the same thing about 19th century baseballs popping up on ebay more often. It would in interesting to know the definitive test of whether a ball is modernly made using old materials - if that test exists

With my new authentication, I have access to a digital x-rax machine. I've had a few 19th century baseballs sent to me, a couple I found to be authentic, the other not so much. Here are pictures of the x-rays. The ball on the left is hand wound with no modern center or spooling. The second x-ray isn't as detailed because we were zoning in on the core, but as you can see we found it to be a perfect rubber center core, which is obviously not found in home made lemon peel balls from the 1850's-60's.

www.historyofthebaseball.com/authentication just in case.

[prewarsports]

Brandon

I think that is a good first step, but if someone was going to go to all the trouble to fake a ball and they had vintage leather (easy to get) and vintage twine to sew it up (also easy) they could easily buy a beat up old ball and unwind the thing and then remove the center but use the old string to rewind a new ball without a center right? Obviously having a cork center would eliminate it right off the bat, but I would think that would only eliminate a small percentate of the fakes with most still being out there.

I want to add that I have never owned a belt ball or Lemon peel in my life despite wanting one for years, which has led to my paranoia on the subject. I have seen some that you just know are good, mostly based on the uneven wear and the patina of the ball especially in the stitch holes but you cant really get a sense of that from a photo on ebay.

Rhys

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I want to add that I have never owned a belt ball or Lemon peel in my life despite wanting one for years, which has led to my paranoia on the subject. I have seen some that you just know are good, mostly based on the uneven wear and the patina of the ball especially in the stitch holes but you cant really get a sense of that from a photo on ebay.

Rhys

Rhys, I had a couple about ten years ago. I bought them separately on ebay and felt very comfortable that they were both real, but at the time, we discussed them on the board, and the consensus was that it's nearly impossible to date such items, mainly because they were hand-made from whatever material was available at the time, most old string and leather did not change that much from the late 1800's to the early 1900's, and the balls were then played nearly to death - it's a miracle that any survived. They could have been 1800's, but also could have been early 1900's. Most of the 1800's dates applied to such balls (by sellers, of course) are just wishful thinking.

[BrandonG]

I think there are a lot of attributes to an actual authentic 19th century ball that would be difficult to replicate, even if someone was using vintage leather, thread, and stuffing. There's just certain ways the leather reacts to having been stitched tightly for 150+ years in comparison to how it would look if it were stitched yesterday. The x-ray is a start yes, but there are many that I wouldn't even waste the time or money to x-ray because I can tell just by looking at the exterior. The construction, the wear & tear, intentional scuffing looks different than age wear. etc.

I'll post some pictures of fake vs. authentic later, and point out obvious flaws.

[drc]

I was considering getting a digital x-ray machine. Talked to my dentist about as I was literally sitting in the dentist's chair.

[Shoeless Moe]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-Early-F...item1c2aee33a7

[prewarsports]

That is the worst one I have ever seen honestly. Most would fool even the experts from a scan alone, but that one is so bad I cant imagine what the two people who made offers were thinking.

[Shoeless Moe]

I think it's a hacky sack from my college dorm someone must have found it. I was wondering where it went.

[JimStinson]

This one to me looks very old .... But there is no visible stitching,

[JimStinson]

Also the shipping charges were Astronomical

[BigJJ]

That's really funny.
I wonder, given the core, if it is an authentic moon.