1905 Pirates - need i.d. help

[Runscott]

I've identified all but six players in this photo of the 1905 Pirates.

Need help with the following: top row - 5,7,8 from left
middle row - 4, 7 from left
bottom row - 5th from left

Thanks!

top: Beaumont, Carisch, Leever, Clymer, unk1, McBride, Unk2, Unk3
middle: Wagner, Peitz, Howard, unk4, Lynch, Phillippe, unk5
bottom: Flaherty, Ritchey, Clarke, Hillebrand, unk6, Leach

[rhettyeakley]

I can take a closer look later (if others haven't nailed it down for you before then) but I'm fairly certain UNK-4 is Bill Clancy
-Rhett

[Dto7]

Top row 5th player is Charlie Case

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Top row 5th player is Charlie Case

Thanks! That's who I had penned in tentatively, but couldn't find a good enough pic of Case to confirm it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I can take a closer look later (if others haven't nailed it down for you before then) but I'm fairly certain UNK-4 is Bill Clancy
-Rhett

Thanks Rhett, I think you are right. The only good pic I could find of him was on a Colgan's Chip, and it does look like him.

[bmarlowe1]

agree with Rhett and unk 1 is Charlie Case

(edited to add - I didn't see Don's post while I was cropping the photos)

[z28jd]

If you're sure the one player is McBride, then he was with the team until July 4th. So other players that could be in this pic include:

George Gibson(not likely, only 3 days separate his debut and McBride leaving)
Frank Moore(good luck finding a pic of him)
Chick Robitaille(likely in the pic)
Charlie Case, who I think is unk. 1
Harry Smith, who rarely played but was more like a bullpen catcher that couldn't stay healthy
Bill Clancy is there somewhere

The picture could be a late pre-season shot and the team cut three pitchers late that year in Spring Training, Vive Lindaman, Clyde Goodwin and a big young lefty pitcher named Holmes...it was Clarence Holmes, found some later notes, played two years for Cedar Rapids, hurt his arm, never pitched again

[rhettyeakley]

UNK 6 is chick robitaille

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by z28jd

If you're sure the one player is McBride, then he was with the team until July 4th. So other players that could be in this pic include:

George Gibson(not likely, only 3 days separate his debut and McBride leaving)
Frank Moore(good luck finding a pic of him)
Chick Robitaille(likely in the pic)
Charlie Case, who I think is unk. 1
Harry Smith, who rarely played but was more like a bullpen catcher that couldn't stay healthy
Bill Clancy is there somewhere

The picture could be a late pre-season shot and the team cut three pitchers late that year in Spring Training, Vive Lindaman, Clyde Goodwin and a big young lefty pitcher named Holmes...it was Clarence Holmes, found some later notes, played two years for Cedar Rapids, hurt his arm, never pitched again

Thanks John - great stuff. I'm certain that's McBride, and also that Gibson is NOT in the pic (watch me be wrong!). I had Robataille pencilled in as #6 and Bull Smith as #5, so what you're saying gives me more confidence in those two guesses. Back to google....

[z28jd]

Bull Smith probably isn't there. Pirates went on a long road trip at the end of the 1904 season and they sent him home after he struggled in 13 games. He wasn't there in 1905

[bmarlowe1]

unk2 is Otto Knabe (pic to come)

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Bull Smith probably isn't there. Pirates went on a long road trip at the end of the 1904 season and they sent him home after he struggled in 13 games. He wasn't there in 1905

John - you 'da man. That's Lindeman in position #2!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

unk2 is Otto Knabe (pic to come)

Are you sure? It looks like this guy to me. Also, Lindaman was 6'1", Knabe was 5'8"

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by z28jd

If you're sure the one player is McBride, then he was with the team until July 4th. So other players that could be in this pic include:

George Gibson(not likely, only 3 days separate his debut and McBride leaving)
Frank Moore(good luck finding a pic of him)
Chick Robitaille(likely in the pic)
Charlie Case, who I think is unk. 1
Harry Smith, who rarely played but was more like a bullpen catcher that couldn't stay healthy
Bill Clancy is there somewhere

I'm thinking the guy on the far right, middle row, could be Frank Moore - Moore was 6'4", and this guy appears to dwarf everyone around him.

[z28jd]

Otto Knabe can't be in the same Pirates team pic as McBride. They were with the team three months apart from each other. Knabe was in the minors until September

[bmarlowe1]

Scott - I think unk2 is Knabe, though the bottom of the philtrum may be slightly different. As for the guy on the Ramly card - though he has a chin cleft - he otherwise is remarkably like Knabe.

[z28jd]

Knabe and McBride WILL NOT be in the same team pic

Lindaman and Moore won't be in the same pic

If you are sure that Lindaman and McBride are both in the pic, then one of the unknowns would be Harry Smith. Smith and Moore won't be in the same pic because Smith was released to the minors, then he recommended Moore to the Pirates, who signed him in early June.

I would say if Lindaman is there, then the big dude is possibly Clarence Holmes, who was always referred to as the big lefty

[bmarlowe1]

Now I need to criticize my own ID -
If you blow it up enough the end of the nose the upper lip shape are a bit different and by measurement Knabe's ears are larger. (and z28jd's comment is well taken)

[bmarlowe1]

It seems that Scott has it right. (chin cleft probably lost in the blur)

[z28jd]

The Pirates roster at the end of Spring Training was:

Peitz, Howard, Wagner, Ritchey, McBride, Clarke, Beaumont, Clymer, Leach, Carisch, Clancy, Hillebrand on offense.

Phillippe, Leever, Case, Lynch, Flaherty, Robitaille

and at the very end Goodwin, Lindaman and Holmes were the last three cuts, all near mid-April.

That is 21 by my count and that pic has 21 players in it including what looks like Lindaman. Just to clarify, at least half of Spring was just those 21 players. They only took nine pitchers to camp. So this is possibly/likely a Spring Training team photo from late March/April

Harry Smith wasn't there during Spring Training, he joined the team briefly during the season that year. Hillebrand was the 3rd string catcher instead.

[bmarlowe1]

unk3 is probably Clyde Goodwin:

[Runscott]

Yeaaa - I got one!

John - I don't think either of the two remaining look like Clarence Holmes, but #5 might be Bull Smith. I don't think it looks that much like him, though - ears are wrong, right?

Clyde Goodwin is a possibility for #3, but I can't find any good photos:


edited Bull Smith vs Unk5 image:

[Runscott]

Mark, apparently we were typing at the same time. Great minds think alike (most of the time).

Thanks for your help on this. I'm excited about getting it framed, but still looking for the right frame, scouring antique stores.

It's a huge image - I wanted to i.d. as many players as possible, hoping to matt it something like this one:

[z28jd]

I'm really gonna say no on Smith. He was real bad in a 13 game trial and they sent him home as they left on a 25 day road trip in mid-September 1904. They still had games left at home when they came back too

[bmarlowe1]

I was surprised to find an image of Cedar Rapids 1904 with Clarence Holmes. Crappy as it is, there is a good chance he is unk5.

So Scott - are you happy now? BTW - without z28jd this would not have been done.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by z28jd

The Pirates roster at the end of Spring Training was:

Peitz, Howard, Wagner, Ritchey, McBride, Clarke, Beaumont, Clymer, Leach, Carisch, Clancy, Hillebrand on offense.

Phillippe, Leever, Case, Lynch, Flaherty, Robitaille

and at the very end Goodwin, Lindaman and Holmes were the last three cuts, all near mid-April.

That is 21 by my count and that pic has 21 players in it including what looks like Lindaman. Just to clarify, at least half of Spring was just those 21 players. They only took nine pitchers to camp. So this is possibly/likely a Spring Training team photo from late March/April

Harry Smith wasn't there during Spring Training, he joined the team briefly during the season that year. Hillebrand was the 3rd string catcher instead.

Those 21 guys I mentioned here Scott were the only guys the Pirates had. Harry Smith was sent home March 20th with an arm injury from the previous season that didn't heal. For almost four weeks, those 21 players were the Pirates team. No Bull Smith, no Harry Smith and no players joined this group until Frank Moore in mid-June

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I was surprised to find an image of Cedar Rapids 1904 with Clarence Holmes. Crappy as it is, there is a good chance he is unk5.

So Scott - are you happy now? BTW - without z28jd this would not have been done.

Yes, I'm very happy. And I agree - John is amazing with his Pirates research, as are you with your i.d. skills. I'm good at wasting money!

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, I'm very happy. And I agree - John is amazing with his Pirates research, as are you with your i.d. skills. I'm good at wasting money!

Also Rhett and Don.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, I'm very happy. And I agree - John is amazing with his Pirates research, as are you with your i.d. skills. I'm good at wasting money!

I have a lot of notes that aren't well-organized and tons of useless Pirates info floating around in my head. Not something you can put on a resume, unless you write for a website that covers the Pirates...so basically, I have the one and only job I'm over-qualified for

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Also Rhett and Don.

Yes, thanks Rhett and Don. It's great having so many resources here to go to for such things. Hope to be able to return the favor at some point.

[Scott Garner]

Mark and Scott,
Not meaning to muddy the waters on Unknown # 2, but I believe that another candidate for this gent would be AP "Lefty" Leifield.

Here is a signed vintage newspaper cut of Lefty who was absolutely a member of this 1905 Pirates team. Lefty Leifield threw an unofficial no-hitter that was called after 6 innings (ran out of daylight?) in 1906. Lefty is listed at 6'1" and 175 lbs., which is very much the build that Unknown mystery man # 2 has.

What do you both think about this comparison?

Thanks!

[z28jd]

Leifield joined the team in September. Wouldn't be on the same team photo as McBride

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Leifield joined the team in September. Wouldn't be on the same team photo as McBride

Very good! Thanks for the clarification.

[Runscott]

Scott - thanks for looking and giving your thoughts.

A couple of the i.d.'s hinge upon me being correct concerning the McBride i.d.

Yes, I am 'certain', but I've been 'certain' and incorrect before, so if anyone disagrees on that one, please let me know.

[z28jd]

Not only does the pic of McBride look like a dead ringer, but if he wasn't in the picture, George Gibson would be. I don't see anyone that looks like Gibson at all. Their time with the team overlapped by three days, so without Gibson the date of June 30th or prior is certain.

The only two players that joined the Pirates before Gibson did, besides the 21 mentioned in the pic, were Frank Moore, who was there for a very brief time in mid-June, and Harry Smith, who was there before Moore and his time was just as brief, but it didn't overlap Moore. Smith could also be in the pic if it was taken before March 20th.


With Gibson in the pic, it would be post June 30th and then you would have a new range of possibilities as well (Leifield, Ganley, Knabe, Kinsella, Flanagan, Brain and Wallace) depending on the date.

To me, it looks like you can pinpoint the date range from March 21- April 10 based on the fact the Pirates had all 21 of those players together in camp for that entire period. The pic was likely taken in Hot Springs, Ark. area, though Louisville is a small possibility as the team traveled there on the way to their season opener in Cincinnati but Clarence Holmes was released to the minors right after they got there. Goodwin went to his minor league club days later and Lindaman lost out the last roster spot to Chick Robitaille on Opening Day. Not that they had roster limits as strict as today, Barney Dreyfuss said in early spring that he would carry between 17 and 19 players and they ended up with 18, not needing seven pitchers. Homer Hillebrand was their emergency pitcher/catcher

[bmarlowe1]

It is George McBride.