PSA 8 Old Judge cards in Goodwin auction now?

[BCD]

anyone have a clue what they will bring? There are two in there and some horizontals.I know there are big collectors who know everything about these but has anyone sold an 8 or horizontal 7 on this forum? Where can I locate the "master" list to view and compare what I have to what is actually known to be out there? Thanks

[wonkaticket]

Not sure what the ones Goodwin has for sale will sell for. I bought my example from Goodwin last year or so...it was under 5k. Have no idea if those poses are tough etc. I'm not an OJ collector. Perhaps somebody like Jay will chime in...

[freakhappy]

I've never seen an Old Judge that looked that good before...that's a beauty!

Good thing it didn't take ballplayers too long to learn how to pose...that's brutal

[RCMcKenzie]

The OJ book is on amazon..

http://www.amazon.com/Photographic-B...&qid=135745191

Lots of good stuff in Goodwin auction. Good Luck, all.

[cyseymour]

A few advanced collectors have gone on a crusade against high-grade OJ's, and basically say as many derogatory things about them as possible, which has scared away the average collector. As a result, high-grade OJ's can be had very cheaply considering the scarcity and age of the card, in contrast to high grade cards from T and E sets.

I believe high-grade OJ's to be some of the nicest cards out there. But most OJ collectors willingly pay a high premium for cards with back damage, creases and tobacco stains as a form of reverse snobbery to show that they don't care about condition. As for the advanced collectors, they don't want people putting money into high-grade OJ's since they don't own them themselves.

So these beautiful high-grade OJ's just sit dead on the market, an SGC 84 with a great image can be had for under a thousand bucks. Meanwhile, total trash like an SGC 40 Brown Hindu will reach a higher price. All to avoid the shame of being a high-grade OJ collector. It doesn't make any sense to me, but that's just how our hobby is - a lot of the best stuff can be found inexpensively.

[barrysloate]

What's the knock against high grade OJ's? Why are they being trashed?

[z28jd]

I'm on year 13 of collecting Old Judge cards and before that I spent a good seven years buying them here and there and learning about the set. I can say that the post by Cy sounds like he is talking about a set I've never even heard about, possibly in a different hobby altogether. I have no idea what he is talking about, Willis.

When you have a set full of commons that cost around $200 each with nice pictures and Hall of Famers and rare cards cost a lot more, it's tough to spend $5,000 on one common player, so the already small collecting pool for the set gets even smaller. If you can get a psa2/sgc30 that looks just as nice, but has back damage on a blank back, for a small fraction of the price, why would you not take it?

I'd rather have 25 commons in psa2 with nice pics, than one psa8. Some people would rather have the nicer card, to each his own, but that doesn't mean there is a small group of collectors for high grade old judge cards. That is what keeps the prices at a normal level most of the time, no competition, no people running the prices up on each other

[barrysloate]

There is a knock against Old Judges that have poor photo quality but receive a high grade because of square corners, but the really gem ones, like the horizontal Mattimore that Wonka posted, are always in demand.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'm on year 13 of collecting Old Judge cards and before that I spent a good seven years buying them here and there and learning about the set. I can say that the post by Cy sounds like he is talking about a set I've never even heard about, possibly in a different hobby altogether. I have no idea what he is talking about, Willis.

When you have a set full of commons that cost around $200 each with nice pictures and Hall of Famers and rare cards cost a lot more, it's tough to spend $5,000 on one common player, so the already small collecting pool for the set gets even smaller. If you can get a psa2/sgc30 that looks just as nice, but has back damage on a blank back, for a small fraction of the price, why would you not take it?

I'd rather have 25 commons in psa2 with nice pics, than one psa8. Some people would rather have the nicer card, to each his own, but that doesn't mean there is a small group of collectors for high grade old judge cards. That is what keeps the prices at a normal level most of the time, no competition, no people running the prices up on each other

John, it's ok, he is on some other planet. The rub on high grade OJs has only been concerning "how" they are graded. We have all seen the image that can barely be seen in a high grade holder and a super minty image in a 1-2 holder, because of a nonsensical reason like a tiny mark on the back. That is the only issue I am aware of and it's the same as it's always been. If I collected OJs I would do as most advanced collectors do and more collect the card than the number on the slab.

[cyseymour]

I've heard a lot of people talk poorly of high grade OJ's, saying things like technical grade doesn't matter. Or that "I wouldn't trade my card for your high grade _____", etc, type of rants. It's just an anti-high grade bias that I've noticed over the years with OJ's, that's why prices are so low.

You can look at recent auction results and see that my point remains that N172 SGC 84's with outstanding images went for under $1000 last fall. That's very low considering the population rarity and quality of the cards. Just my viewpoint, coming from whatever planet you may think I'm on.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

I've heard a lot of people talk poorly of high grade OJ's, saying things like technical grade doesn't matter. Or that "I wouldn't trade my card for your high grade _____", etc, type of rants. It's just an anti-high grade bias that I've noticed over the years with OJ's, that's why prices are so low.

You can look at recent auction results and see that my point remains that N172 SGC 84's with outstanding images went for under $1000 last fall. That's very low considering the population rarity and quality of the cards. Just my viewpoint, coming from whatever planet you may think I'm on.

How about listening Jamie. No one has a problem with high grade OJs that I have seen or read. They have a problem, as stated, with the way they are given their technical grades. The image is the most important thing to most collectors, whether it's in a 1 holder or a 9 holder. And those 8s in the Goodwin auction have great images. Their, and most OJ prices, will reflect their image quality not the number on the flip. Do you understand that? It's either yes or no. And I should add that, in retrospect, some of the pricing can have to do with the number on the flip as some people do buy the holder and not the card, however, in my experience that is not how most OJ collectors are.

[conor912]

Why the hell is he lying down and splayed out like some old west floozie?

[cyseymour]

Leon,

I am well aware of the issues with the grading companies grading some faded cards as high grade. Frankly, they have made a mess of things. That's why in my previous posts I explicitly referred to the cards as "an SGC 84 with a great image" and "N172's SGC 84's with outstanding images" as being under a thousand dollars.

To each his own, maybe some people want to collect high grade cards with faded images, not I. But I believe that the high grade cards with outstanding images have been taken down as well as a result of the grading snafu. I say this because a T206 PSA 8 "1of1" will go for over 7.5k, but an N172 PSA 8 with a strong image is still in the 2.5k range, that is only 1/3 the value.

Also, if perhaps half the high-grade OJ's are really overgraded due to a faded image, think of how special that makes the really nice ones...

Again, just my viewpoint, people may choose to collect them however they wish (I own a variety of different grade OJ's, btw).

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by conor912

Why the hell is he lying down and splayed out like some old west floozie?

He's sliding... or taking a nap.

[oldjudge]

High grade Old Judges do not command the premium of high grade T206s because there is no registry set competition.

[HRBAKER]

I think Jay makes a good point. It would be interesting to see if there was whether people would pay large sums for high graded cards with a non or barely discernable image, bc they are out there.

I think the earlier point is valid as well, with Old Judge cards and the image quality not being taken into account vis-a-vis a number grade; most collectors don't consider the plastic grade to be meaningfully accurate. They are much more concerned with image quality by and large than whether you can cut cheese with the corners and if the back is clean.

[smtjoy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

High grade Old Judges do not command the premium of high grade T206s because there is no registry set competition.

I agree with Jay and add in many collector would rather have a 1-3 (back damage) that has an 8 image for 10-20% of the cost of that graded 8 (I know I do). Also comparing a blank backed card to one where the back really matters like T206 is not even comparing apples to apples. Exhibits pricing can do the same thing when the front is NM and the back has damage, they bring strong prices compared to very rough cards in the same grade.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

High grade Old Judges do not command the premium of high grade T206s because there is no registry set competition.

Agreed. But maybe there will a registry competition in the future for OJ's, who knows? I would rather own high grade cards of sets that the competition does not yet exist because they are far less expensive.

Of course, I realize that the fact that so many faded OJ's were already given high grades is an obstacle for set registry collectors. But maybe someday there will be a way of re-grading them?

Also, I think that (not faded) high-grade 19th Century cards are major condition rarities, just because they are so old. A high-grade OJ is far more rare than a high-grade T206, for instance.

[oldjudge]

Cy--I agree with everything you say. I think the major roadblock against developing Old Judge registry competition is that so many of the players are extremely hard/virtually impossible to find. The registry would have no one with anywhere near a complete set. Also, most of the Old Judge collectors who use TPGs tend to use SGC, not PSA. SGC has yet to develop meaningful registry competition, at least on the scale of PSA. This also hampers the registry premium affecting Old Judge cards. I think the last person to try to assemble a representative Old Judge registry set was Alan Sassoon. He had an SGC graded set with, if I remember correctly, over 470 different players. He sold his set at auction many years ago. Today, to even duplicate what Alan achieved would be very difficult.

[CW]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

To each his own, maybe some people want to collect high grade cards with faded images, not I. But I believe that the high grade cards with outstanding images have been taken down as well as a result of the grading snafu. I say this because a T206 PSA 8 "1of1" will go for over 7.5k, but an N172 PSA 8 with a strong image is still in the 2.5k range, that is only 1/3 the value.

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Also, I think that (not faded) high-grade 19th Century cards are major condition rarities, just because they are so old. A high-grade OJ is far more rare than a high-grade T206, for instance.

If you are going to compare OJs to T206s, you simply cannot expect comparable prices. Despite the fact that it makes more sense to you that high grade OJs (with good images) should cost about the same as high grade, "low pop" T206s, it just is not the case -- we're talking apples to oranges.

While both are popular sets, nothing in the prewar realm compares to the popularity of T206. Thrown in the set registry competition, as oldjudge mentioned, and the demand increases, despite the abundant supply of T206s compared to OJs. Rarity should play a role, but I think popularity and demand will often trump rarity.

[Matthew H]

I'm going to politely disagree with everything Cy has said so far. Neither of those PSA 8 OJs in Goodwin are rare, scarce, or tough. Every single serious OJ collector already has a nice Del Darling card, IMO one of the most common cards out there. If a seriously advanced collector picked this up it wouldn't be because they needed it, it would probably be because it went cheap and would be more of a novelty... I've been told that there are a few guys out there that only care about technical condition, but it's just a few.

The reason, in my opinion, the condition "rarity" phenomenon doesn't exist in the OJ market is because the set it self already rare, most of the cards are scarce. If you are going to go for PSA 8s, you will have a very small collection. It has nothing to do with "snobs snubbing". The last time I recall anything similar to what CY is suggesting, is when that "highest graded" Harry Wright came to market. It was PSA 8 with almost no photo left, and yes, some did speak against the "best in the hobby" claims made by the grade itself.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Cy--I agree with everything you say. I think the major roadblock against developing Old Judge registry competition is that so many of the players are extremely hard/virtually impossible to find. The registry would have no one with anywhere near a complete set. Also, most of the Old Judge collectors who use TPGs tend to use SGC, not PSA. SGC has yet to develop meaningful registry competition, at least on the scale of PSA.

I agree that the fact that some of the cards are unique makes the set difficult to collect, and while SGC has a set registry, people aren't always competing on it as much as showing their cards.

Nevertheless, the original demand for high-grade cards stems not from a desire to win a competition, but from the inherent beauty of a well-preserved collectible itself (almost forgotten now).

I, for one, find the high grade OJ's with bold images to be very visually appealing. That they survived for so long, are so old and so beautiful, yet so difficult to find, makes me truly appreciate them.

[BCD]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

The OJ book is on amazon..

http://www.amazon.com/Photographic-B...&qid=135745191

Lots of good stuff in Goodwin auction. Good Luck, all.

Thanks for posting this link!

[BCD]

The two in the auction up in Goodwin presently show deep distinct images with no fading or corner wear akin to the killer one John owns! I did interface with Jay about the value of these a month ago or so.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by BCD

The two in the auction up in Goodwin presently show deep distinct images with no fading or corner wear akin to the killer one John owns! I did interface with Jay about the value of these a month ago or so.

So, we could assume they are your consignment that you are pimping?

[RCMcKenzie]

I bought the OJ book on amazon recently and after I bought the book the website went to a recommendations page that said, "people who bought this book also bought the DVDs Easy Money, Back to School, and Caddyshack."



ojkcmgr.jpg

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by sb1

So, we could assume they are your consignment that you are pimping?

Sticking your hand in the cage... that will be regrettable.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

He's sliding... or taking a nap.

Sliding into what? Something more comfortable?

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Sticking your hand in the cage... that will be regrettable.

[nolemmings]

nice cards anyway

[conor912]

Originally Posted by CW

Rarity should play a role, but I think popularity and demand will often trump rarity.

Nail on the head.

[E93]

I don't think anybody has ever accused me of not being condition conscious, but with N172s (of which I have about 140 different), I could not care less what the technical assessment of the grading companies is. It does NOT match with my personal concerns regarding condition on this set. So I have everything from "A's" to "7's".
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Wow Jim!

[barrysloate]

Jim- I'm always impressed with your Old Judges and I agree completely that the photo quality is what's important. That Dalrymple/Denver looks like it's a tough card- is that considered a scarce one (notice I singled out the SGC 10 among the whole group)?

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jim- I'm always impressed with your Old Judges and I agree completely that the photo quality is what's important. That Dalrymple/Denver looks like it's a tough card- is that considered a scarce one (notice I singled out the SGC 10 among the whole group)?

I noticed, that's because of the anti-high grade bias I was talking about earlier. The Gaffney is a sweet card, though also great images on the Freeman and Robinson. Nice OJ's can be found in any grade, in fact I collect in much the same way JimB does. They are just very rare to find in high grade.

[E93]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I bought the OJ book on amazon recently and after I bought the book the website went to a recommendations page that said, "people who bought this book also bought the DVDs Easy Money, Back to School, and Caddyshack."

What? No Seinfeld?

[drc]

I thought BMW Cards has a SGC Mint Old Judge pulled from a pack.

[atx840]

WOW is right..thanks for sharing Jim

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by drc

I thought BMW Cards has a SGC Mint Old Judge pulled from a pack.

I thought it was Gem Mint, and I thought there was significant eyebrows raised, as the card has a noticeable tobacco stain on the back.

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by philliesphan

I thought it was Gem Mint, and I thought there was significant eyebrows raised, as the card has a noticeable tobacco stain on the back.

Indeed -- here was the write-up on the card when it was available for sale a decade ago:

1887 N172 Old Judge C. Alcott (Taken from Old Judge Pack) ................ SGC 98 - $10,000

Among all of the grading companies, there are literally only a handful of N172 Old Judge singles graded Mint. However, there is ONLY ONE GEM MINT 10. Furthermore, this Gem Mint 10 is the only known example that was found in a completely intact and unopened Old Judge Cigarette package. In fact, it is unlikely that another such find has occurred in the last 100 years. As such, it is, and always will be the only Pedigreed Gem Mint 10 example. In fact, SGC, which is the strictest grader of 19th Century baseball cards, has never even graded a Mint 9!

While no card is completely flawless, this card is significantly nicer than any other known N172. First, This is the only Old Judge with four original, razor sharp, Gem Mint, and Perfect corners! The imagery is unquestionably superb. The contrast, focus and registration are absolutely incredible. Furthermore, the edges are fresh and clean and the reverse is literally fresh-from-the-pack! The clarity of the depicted Charles Alcott, third baseman for Mansfield (the only Mansfield player in the set!), is absolutely stunning. Remember, while the only auctioned PSA Mint 9 Old Judge climbed to more than $30,000.00 on eBay, this vastly superior example embodies GEM MINT 10 PERFECTION!

[oldjudge]

I once owned this card. These were not just minor tobacco stains, the back was dark brown from being next to the cigarettes for over one hundred years. My guess is that the card would grade quite low by today's standards. However, the image is beautiful and that was all I cared about.

[cyseymour]

There is also a PSA 9 O'Rourke with a tobacco stain on the reverse, which I once owned. Smashing card in every other respect. I was told that the card was from a Kentucky(?) find in the mid-nineties, so clearly it was graded early. Standards have really tightened up since then, I don't what it would grade today, but it's still a beautiful card.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

WOW is right..thanks for sharing Jim

+1 Beautiful cards.

If I collected those I would be searching for examples like Jim's (shown), excellent images regardless of what the flip says. I would say every one of those are high grade; I can see why OJ collectors would get frustrated with how OJ's are currently graded. Of course you would take every aspect of the card into account, but I would think the clearness of the image would (should) be the main focus point.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

There is also a PSA 9 O'Rourke with a tobacco stain on the reverse, which I once owned. Smashing card in every other respect. I was told that the card was from a Kentucky(?) find in the mid-nineties, so clearly it was graded early. Standards have really tightened up since then, I don't what it would grade today, but it's still a beautiful card.

I'd love to see a scan if you have one, sounds like a great card!

[cyseymour]

http://robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/34.html

[Matthew H]

Nice!

[RCMcKenzie]

ojorrbat.jpgojsmithbat.jpg


What makes the n172 cards great is the variety of ways the set can be collected. By player, team, pose, league, type of pose, grade, photo quality etc.

[oldjudge]

I love Dave Orr cards. He was one of the great hitters of the 19th century and, had a stroke not cut his career short, he would most likely be in the HOF. For those unfamiliar with Orr, check out his stats.

[cyseymour]

Dave Orr was a beast. Kind of looks like an ogre in the photo. I would place him alongside Caruthers and Stovey as the best 19th cent. players with careers too short to place them in the HOF.

You could also count a couple players with super-short careers due to injury, Sockalexis and J. Lee Richmond. Anyone have any J. Lee Richmond memorabilia?

[oldjudge]

I have an 1880 Worcester team composite cabinet with Richmond in it.