Were T215 Pirates distributed?

[Sean]

The recent thread on scraps got me wondering: were the T215 Pirate backs that have surfaced recently actually distributed in packs?

The story behind this set is that they were printed in England, then sold to American sailors in the Philippines.That means that to make it back to America they would have been stashed in the personal effects of a sailor for months at a time. We assume that this is why so few have ever surfaced. After all, how many sailors ever made collecting and properly storing these cards a priority while at sea?

And yet, of the few such cards that have surfaced, all seem to be in excellent condition. The 2007 set of 96 cards sold by Legendary were mostly graded Ex or NM. The five sold last year by REA were graded Authentic, but only because they were hand-cut. They presented as Near Mint (see below).

So here's my question: how could these cards all have survived the trip from Manilla to America so well. None of them have creases, stains, or any marks at all. Compare this to T206s. How small a percentage of them are in such condition today; and T206s didn't have to survive an ocean voyage in a sailor's locker.

I believe that it's likely that at least these two groups of T215 Pirates were never distributed. I think that they were obtained in England, whether directly from the manufacturer or not I don't know. Does anyone else have any thoughts on these cards?

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[atx840]

Great topic and card Sean. Are there any lower grade/beat up Pirates out there?

[wonkaticket]

I’ve had this discussion many times with a few collectors. I don’t think they ever were put into packs or issued to the public. In fact I think the SGC graded examples are also AUTH and because they have seen so few and because of the importance and pressure gave them grades. Add to the fact that at least 80% or more of the examples have originated from the same area/collector and so few have survived. Yet the non-sports versions while some are tough are around and in all degrees of condition.



I have yet to see a beat T215 baseball subject has anyone?



Even if there was one beater the swing is the exact opposite the bulk are high grade and very few are rough…I can’t think of many issues where that happens.In the end we’re talking about cards issued overseas to soldiers in fox holes as the story goes etc. Did they all go overseas into battle with card savers?

Just my two cents..not iron clad just my thoughts on the issue.

[sb1]

The large group did originate in England and there are a lot of 30's,40's and 50's in it. Other small groups or singles have came from elsewhere. Most of the ones sold in the last few years were trimmed. Full size and mostly diagonal cuts make up the majority of untrimmed ones.

[Sean]

Wonka, your comment on SGC's grading of the 96 card find makes sense.

As for the collector, are we talking about Sir Edward Wharton Tigar? I know that our cards supposedly originated with him. Has it ever been determined that the 96 card set from 2007 was also originally Sir Edward's?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Sean

Wonka, your comment on SGC's grading of the 96 card find makes sense.

As for the collector, are we talking about Sir Edward Wharton Tigar? I know that our cards supposedly originated with him. Has it ever been determined that the 96 card set from 2007 was also originally Sir Edward's?

Correct the REA cards also came from Tigar to a US collector as I was told...so the bulk of the examples have come from overseas and have come from a few sources...for what that's worth.

P.S. Nice card Scott I always liked that pose.

[atx840]

I think a few likely were cut at the factory....would someone intentionally cut this (other then Johnny V )?

[sb1]

One thing that makes one wonder if the near set came from Tigar, several of them were uncatalogued at the time of the auction. I believe he was rather prolific in cataloguing with the World Tobacco Index and surely these would have listed these if he had owned them?? His entire collection went to museum in 1995 well ahead of the 2007 auction.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Cool stuff. Had never heard of these.


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[mrvster]

arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhh matie! Some pirate scrappy

[Leon]

Nice thread guys. I think the REA auction that had the small group of them had just about the exact correct quantity to wrangle every penny from us. It seems like the supply vs demand curve was dissected perfectly, unfortunately for us collectors, but fortunately for the consignor!!

[Exhibitman]

We all may be right:

--A large cluster of high grade cards many hand cut found in England probably never did see the inside of a pack;
--The fact that the set had an ACC number means it is known from back in the day so likely not only a non-issued cluster of cards.
--I am certain that there are some other cards in the hands of collectors who do not share their holdings publicly and who do not slab their cards.
--Odds are that the issued Pirate cards were only a tiny part baseball, Judging from the variety of NS cards. None are easy to get.
--I have been chasing UK issued foreign export boxing cards for years. They show up both from the UK and Asian sellers from nations that are fully integrated into e-commerce in the collectibles field. China is not one of them. Cards I have seen from Asian countries that were war torn in WW2 are very scarce. I don't think much that was there survived the Japanese war machine. Thus far I have only gotten one prewar UK export card directly from an Asian seller and I have been carefully trolling Asian selling sites for years.

[tedzan]

Several here have mentioned that the "Pirate" cards were printed in England.

Not so....the "Pirate" cards are "cousins" of the 1910-12 T215 cards that were printed in NYC at American Lithographic.

How many cards were shipped to the W.D. & H.O. Wills Tobacco Co. in England for inclusion in their "Pirate" cigarette packs we will never know.

Interestingly, Wills Tobacco started inserting cards in their cigarette packs in 1887. A popular set of cards were included in their packs in 1895
depicting Ships & Sailors that were printed in England.

During WWI, they had a colorful 50-card set of Generals printed in England for inclusion in their cigarette packs.

And in the 1930's, they had a high-quality, photographic-like color card set of "Football" (soccer) players included in their tobacco products.


TED Z

[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Several here have mentioned that the "Pirate" cards were printed in England.

Not so....the "Pirate" cards are "cousins" of the 1910-12 T215 cards that were printed in NYC at American Lithographic.

How many cards were shipped to the W.D. & H.O. Wills Tobacco Co. in England for inclusion in their "Pirate" cigarette packs we will never know.

Interestingly, Wills Tobacco started inserting cards in their cigarette packs in 1887. A popular set of cards were included in their packs in 1895
depicting Ships & Sailors that were printed in England.

During WWI, they had a colorful 50-card set of Generals printed in England for inclusion in their cigarette packs.

And in the 1930's, they had a high-quality, photographic-like color card set of "Football" (soccer) players included in their tobacco products.


TED Z

Ted, were the backs also printed in New York?

[tedzan]

Sean

I tend to think that the "Pirate" backs and the "Pirate" packs were printed in England. So, we shipped to Wills Tobacco blank-backs of T215-type cards.

This would make more sense to me, since the "Pirate" Non-Sports Asian cards were most likely printed in England.

However, that contradicts my thinking that these recent finds of very sharp condition "Pirate" cards originated straight from the American Litho. Co.

Therefore, I gues I'm uncertain where the backs were printed.

Anyhow, those are my opinions.


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TED Z

[Sean]

Well, we certainly agree that these Pirates were never distributed in packs.