The other T207 backs

[frohme]

Been on the board off and on since about 2006 - my post count is pretty low for the time I've been here. I think this may be the very first post I've started (outside a couple B/S/T posts). Those of you that know me know there's only one thing it could be about... That said, this was intended to be a follow-up post to the T207 basic backs and general info post, but this one was more interesting.


The T207 set has been collected and discussed well enough that information about the front/back relationships has been established for quite a while. In its shortest form, it goes .. there are two main classes: those that can be found with Recruit (150) and those that can be found with Broadleaf (50). The other backs fall in one class or the other. That's it.

Like its more well-studied siblings T206 and T205, though, there are pockets of mystique (or at least mystery) about a few of those "other" backs and their general populations.

• The Red Cross back has been the odd man out for a long time. Until the recent Louisiana find containing 8 new examples, only a handful were known. Trae R's very recent find of Fournier brought the known player total to 14 (15 cards) all of which are Broadleaf-class cards. How many more will show up? Will all 50 Broadleaf class cards be found?
   
• Blank-backed T207's have been known for a while, with a large group having been brought (back?) into the hobby in the not-so-distant past. Until recently (2015/2016), only Recruit-class cards had been found with a blank back. In 2015 a Broadleaf-class card was found with a blank back. Two more were found earlier this year - the count now stands at 3 (Fournier, Sweeney, Ragan). How many are known? How tough are they really, compared to T205 or T206?
   
• The Anonymous (Factory 3, LA) back has always been somewhat misunderstood as it the only back that can be found on the 50 Broadleaf class cards as well as some (50?) of the Recruit-class cards. The "?" is there because, to-date, only 49 Recruits with the anonymous back have been cataloged, and those only recently. All 49 were sold as part of a larger lot in Heritage's Oct 2012 auction. This back is exceedingly difficult for the Recruit-class - harder even than the Broadleaf-class. Sample sizes are tiny - some cards having only 1 or 2 known copies at this point.
   
• That brings us to the red-headed step-child of the set, the Napoleon back. A Recruit-class only back, the potential fronts total 150 (155 with the known-variations). Based on Net54 surveys revisited only occasionally over the last few (10?) years, it is not clear today that all expected front/back combos exist with the Napoleon back. Given the rarity of Napoleons in general w.r.t. Recruit and the overall apparent lack of interest, its not really a surprise. Readers should not imply that the unconfirmed ones are any more rare or unusual than any other Napoleons - most T207 collectors believe its just a matter of time before these all show up (i.e. once someone notices).

.

If you have any of these backs and want to show 'em, don't hesitate. If you have more details, general info, questions, comments or feedback, by all means, pile-on. I'll follow up with a Napoleon confirmation thread to see if we can knock out the ones that remain uncatalogued (at least as far as I know).

As I've said many time previously, I'm indebted to the publications of those that have gone before - notably the VCBC articles of board members Bob M and Tim N. My interest would not have been piqued without their effort as inspiration.

Thanks for reading!
--
Mike

[buymycards]

Hi Mike,
I love your thread. I have never fully understood the breakdown of different backs for the T207's.

Thanks for clarifying this for me. Since I mostly collect just cards that are manufactured in New Orleans, I enjoy seeing the Anonymous backs.

Rick

[rhettyeakley]

I have this one...

[marcdelpercio]

Great info, Mike! The T207s have long been my favorite set, and to me the most interesting, challenging, and mysterious of all sets of the era. As you noted, the tough backs in this set are TRULY tough...far more so than any T206 or T205 counterparts. I really can't add much to your post, as you have laid it out very thoroughly. Here are a few interesting cards, though...a blank backed Lively and some Anonymous Recruit class cards. And even though this is a "backs" thread, here are a couple of interesting fronts as well...a scrap/missing color pass Bodie and Fisher.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

What a tremendous thread! From time to time, I have pondered buying some T207s. It just seems so enormous...I just don't know where to start! Great information!

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[RCMcKenzie]

Including the Evans I just bought on ebay, I have 6 Napoleon backs...

[Steve D]

Nice post.

I have 17 t207s, including all the hall of famers. I've thought many times about attempting to complete the set, but am scared off by all the tough cards.


Steve

[Brian Van Horn]

Somebody last week on eBay bought a Napoleon back of Harry Hooper for $1000.00. A little much for me, but......

[Vintagecatcher]

The T207 set is certainly a challenge to collect. With the help of Mike and others, I have been able to acquire all the catchers in the set minus Irving Lewis and the Livingston "A" on shirt.

I have also managed to collect all but a Red Cross back in the set. My favorite back is the Cycle back. Have a Red Kuhn and a William Kelly. My lone example of a Napoleon back is George "Peaches" Graham. My only Anon (Factory 3 LA) is Otto Miller.

Patrick

[shernan30]

Great write up Mike!!

Here are a few of my tougher cards from my Cincinnati set (in process)

[Yoda]

I have given up hope trying to spark any interest in the brown ink Recruit back. I currently have 2 up in the REA auction that haven't even drawn a bid. Back in 2007 Mastro had a common with the brown ink reverse and made a big deal out of it, comparing it to the brown Lenox reverse, and stating it should be considered a true variation. I believe it fetched around a grand. Beckett must have agreed, since they are the only grading company who identify it as such. Perhaps if the other grading followed suit something might happen.

[caramelcard]

John,

I've had SGC grade T207 brown ink backs as such for me. Perhaps they don't anymore.

Mike,

Good thread. With the large group of blank backs that surfaced 10 years ago I don't remember any being non recruit class.

Collectors used to call Anon backs coupons, but only because they had been found with large groups of coupon t213s which doesn't really mean anything.

Like the E98 issue, it's hard to imagine why the backs are anonymous. Although E98s (as we know from the recent large find) were not necessarily inserted into anything. I would imagine anonymous backed t207s were inserted into a Louisiana based cigarette pack.

So it would make sense that they could be coupons.

And if you really think about it, if the folks buying the cigs know that there are cards inside, they wouldn't care after the fact if there was advertising on the backs of the cards. More interested in the fronts.

Rob

[Jobu]

Great post Mike, thank you for adding such clear reference material (and thanks for all of the info you have shared over email). Also - very nice cards everyone.

[sb1]

A breakdown by tougher backs in the set I have.

Anonymous Fact 3 5
Anonymous Fact 25 11
Broadleaf 19
Cycle 13
Napoleon 3 Ray Fisher, George Mullin No D on Cap, Mike Simon

Pretty shocking how tough Napoleon's are. Of course the first four backs above would be expected to be strongly represented as those cards only come with one of the four backs(excluding Red Cross of course). But when given the chance of having the Recruit and Napoleon parallel checklist and only having three clearly shows their scarcity.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

[*]The Red Cross back has been the odd man out for a long time. Until the recent Louisiana find containing 8 new examples, only a handful were known. Trae R's very recent find of Fournier brought the known player total to 14 (15 cards) all of which are Broadleaf-class cards. How many more will show up? Will all 50 Broadleaf class cards be found?

Does anyone have any additional information about the 5 cards found prior to the Louisiana find?

The first "find" was supposedly 4 cards found sometime around 1983(?). Weaver and Blackburne were 2 of the cards... does anyone know who the other 2 were or where the cards were found?

Then a Lange card was found sometime later. Any info on when/where that one turned up?


Oh and my T207 Factory 3:

[RCMcKenzie]

As mentioned above, here is the Steve Evans, (36 hour eBay turnaround)...The bios on these are interesting...Here they note that Evans was a "comedian", not unlike some of our post-war collector friends on here...

[kmac32]

All cubbies mainly T207

[kmac32]

Different backs

[Luke]

Nice thread, thanks for the info! Napoleons are my favorite back. If anyone ever sees anything I'm selling and has Napoleons to trade, please let me know!

Ken, that is an awesome display. For the Recruit class guys that you have 2 of, does that mean you have Napoleons as well as Recruits, or that you have a Recruit 240 and a 606?

[Tao_Moko]

Love this set. Still waiting on a Ward Miller to complete my set. Passed on the last two because they were too nice for me. Here's my Saier

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

Nice thread, thanks for the info! Napoleons are my favorite back. If anyone ever sees anything I'm selling and has Napoleons to trade, please let me know!

Ken, that is an awesome display. For the Recruit class guys that you have 2 of, does that mean you have Napoleons as well as Recruits, or that you have a Recruit 240 and a 606?

Looking for more Cubs with Napoleon backs. Currently have Frank Chance and 1 other CUBBIE. Looking to complete the set and when done, I will have 32 cards. I am also collecting all the different factories on the backs. Have all the Saiers and missing a Ward Miller factory 25 and red cycle Miller and 5 different Napoleons missing. Napoleons are tougher than the Millers.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Ok, so drum roll time for what I am sure is a dumb/obvious question. I am getting increasingly interested in these little brown cards and have visited/bookmarked the informative links you guys have offered up (including old Net54 threads). However, how do I know which backs the Cardinals players appear on? Either in this thread or the other T207 thread Mike or someone has listed all of the T207 Cardinals and designated which would be found with Recruit backs and Broadleaf backs. How do we know that there aren't any Napoleon or Cycle backs? Not questioning expertise, just trying to understand.

The way I can make sense of this set is to collect them by team. I want to go the Cardinals first and then perhaps the Cubs. I have looked on the sites I have seen mentioned but not seeing a definitive formula regarding backs for the teams' players...or I am not smart enough to understand it. For instance, how does Ken know which Cubbies have Napoleon backs?

[ullmandds]

i have a blank back mcgraw...i wish i picked up more when that little hoard came to market. I also have a ivan olson missing color card.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Ok, so drum roll time for what I am sure is a dumb/obvious question. I am getting increasingly interested in these little brown cards and have visited/bookmarked the informative links you guys have offered up (including old Net54 threads). However, how do I know which backs the Cardinals players appear on? Either in this thread or the other T207 thread Mike or someone has listed all of the T207 Cardinals and designated which would be found with Recruit backs and Broadleaf backs. How do we know that there aren't any Napoleon or Cycle backs? Not questioning expertise, just trying to understand.

The way I can make sense of this set is to collect them by team. I want to go the Cardinals first and then perhaps the Cubs. I have looked on the sites I have seen mentioned but not seeing a definitive formula regarding backs for the teams' players...or I am not smart enough to understand it. For instance, how does Ken know which Cubbies have Napoleon backs?

Ok, I think I may have answered my own questions. I got to looking on Old Cardboard again and found the checklist of the players and the backs they were printed on. Also, I followed the link that led to the cards of each team. So, between the two lists, I should have all the info I was fretting over. Right?

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[kmac32]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Ok, I think I may have answered my own questions. I got to looking on Old Cardboard again and found the checklist of the players and the backs they were printed on. Also, I followed the link that led to the cards of each team. So, between the two lists, I should have all the info I was fretting over. Right?

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If you get serious about T207, you can collect the different factories on the backs.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by kmac32

If you get serious about T207, you can collect the different factories on the backs.

Good point, Ken. I have definitely noticed the factories. I am going to ease into this, but there's a lot going on inside this set of cards. A team approach might well work best for me and keep me from being even less disciplined than usual.

How long have you collected T207s? Are you targeting Cubs only, or do you have a broader focus?

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[kmac32]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Good point, Ken. I have definitely noticed the factories. I am going to ease into this, but there's a lot going on inside this set of cards. A team approach might well work best for me and keep me from being even less disciplined than usual.

How long have you collected T207s? Are you targeting Cubs only, or do you have a broader focus?

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Cubs only for me. There are 32 possibilities including the different factories. I also have a Brown print recruit of one of the players so this brings it to 33 possibilities as targets. Brown print Recruits are rare as is and to find them as Cubs is even more rare. I doubt if I will ever find all the Recruit Cubs in brown ink.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I never considered 30 some odd cards as much of a project until I started taking a deeper look at the T207s like your Cubs team set and the Cardinals team set I am looking into. With the different backs and factories in T207, that is quite a task! The Cubs set would be another one I would like. Happy hunting!

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[frohme]

Hey Zach,

I think there hasn't been much change in that area since we hashed through it in 2014 - www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190490. We didn't get much other input, and left things with as much uncertainty as we started, I think...

That said, there is reference from a well-known and respected board member stating visual confirmation of the Ward Miller from a 2005 Net54 thread - see http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76180. That thread also has the reference to Miller being the 5th Red Cross known. I believe this thread predates Joe Jones' find of Lange in 2006/2007. There's also reference to Lowdermilk ... a few years ahead of its time.

Even in 2003, our esteemed moderator (hi Leon!) knew of 5, four of which had been known for a long time. He also said that (outside of those 5 as I read it) he knew of a Lowdermilk... see http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63561

Not sure what that all means, other than by piecing things together from various threads, one could argue that:

1. the five known cards (in 2003) were:
   
   • Weaver
   • Blackburne
   • Benz
   • W. Miller
   • and a 5th, as yet unknown/unremembered card
2. The Lange find - former(?) Fourm member Joe Jones (joejo20) - later in the decade was #6.
3. The 8 cards from George D in 2010 were #'s 7-14 with the first dupe (Blackburne)
4. Trae R's find recently makes 15.

... or, that could all be bunk.

All we know for certain is that we have images of 12 cards. We also have numerous details and recollections from hobby members with reputations beyond reproach that at least two others exist ... possibly 3 or even 4, if the Lowdermilk referred to in the threads linked above actually exists and had no relation to the George D find.

Its pretty much a morass.
--
Mike

Originally Posted by ZachS

Does anyone have any additional information about the 5 cards found prior to the Louisiana find?

The first "find" was supposedly 4 cards found sometime around 1983(?). Weaver and Blackburne were 2 of the cards... does anyone know who the other 2 were or where the cards were found?

Then a Lange card was found sometime later. Any info on when/where that one turned up?
...

[frohme]

Hey Robert,

The Cardinals you're looking for are pretty well known (or at least mostly).

Broadleaf class - 2 cards (Lowdermilk and Woodburn), 4 backs each (Broadleaf, Cycle, Anonymous factories 3 and 25) = 8 cards

Recruit class - 12 cards (Bresnahan, Ellis, Evans, Golden, Harmon, Konetchy, Oakes, Smith (W), Steele, Steinfeldt, Wilie, Wingo), 3 backs each (Recruit Fac 240 and 606, + Napoleon) = 36 cards.

Add to that the 2 known Anon 3 recruits (Steele, Wingo) and the 1 Red Cross (Lowdermilk) and you have 47 cards.

[This may have been answered this on a previous post for the Cardinals (like for the Cubs for Ken), if so, my apologies.]

--
Mike

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Ok, so drum roll time for what I am sure is a dumb/obvious question. I am getting increasingly interested in these little brown cards and have visited/bookmarked the informative links you guys have offered up (including old Net54 threads). However, how do I know which backs the Cardinals players appear on? Either in this thread or the other T207 thread Mike or someone has listed all of the T207 Cardinals and designated which would be found with Recruit backs and Broadleaf backs. How do we know that there aren't any Napoleon or Cycle backs? Not questioning expertise, just trying to understand.

The way I can make sense of this set is to collect them by team. I want to go the Cardinals first and then perhaps the Cubs. I have looked on the sites I have seen mentioned but not seeing a definitive formula regarding backs for the teams' players...or I am not smart enough to understand it. For instance, how does Ken know which Cubbies have Napoleon backs?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by frohme

Hey Robert,

The Cardinals you're looking for are pretty well known (or at least mostly).

Broadleaf class - 2 cards (Lowdermilk and Woodburn), 4 backs each (Broadleaf, Cycle, Anonymous factories 3 and 25) = 8 cards

Recruit class - 12 cards (Bresnahan, Ellis, Evans, Golden, Harmon, Konetchy, Oakes, Smith (W), Steele, Steinfeldt, Wilie, Wingo), 3 backs each (Recruit Fac 240 and 606, + Napoleon) = 36 cards.

Add to that the 2 known Anon 3 recruits (Steele, Wingo) and the 1 Red Cross (Lowdermilk) and you have 47 cards.

[This may have been answered this on a previous post for the Cardinals (like for the Cubs for Ken), if so, my apologies.]

--
Mike

Thanks, Mike! Very helpful information. It should be fun finding these.

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[bn2cardz]

Here is my blank back and a Recruit upside down back.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Here is my blank back and a Recruit upside down back.

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by frohme

Hey Robert,

The Cardinals you're looking for are pretty well known (or at least mostly).

Broadleaf class - 2 cards (Lowdermilk and Woodburn), 4 backs each (Broadleaf, Cycle, Anonymous factories 3 and 25) = 8 cards

Recruit class - 12 cards (Bresnahan, Ellis, Evans, Golden, Harmon, Konetchy, Oakes, Smith (W), Steele, Steinfeldt, Wilie, Wingo), 3 backs each (Recruit Fac 240 and 606, + Napoleon) = 36 cards.

Add to that the 2 known Anon 3 recruits (Steele, Wingo) and the 1 Red Cross (Lowdermilk) and you have 47 cards.

[This may have been answered this on a previous post for the Cardinals (like for the Cubs for Ken), if so, my apologies.]

--
Mike

Here are my two Woodburns, I would like to find the other two backs:

[Leon]

That Recruit back is killer.....love it.

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Here is my blank back and a Recruit upside down back.

[sb1]

A couple of odd balls that I have not shown for awhile.