Trimming Frauds Revealed | How Does It Impact Vintage???

[Collect Equity]

On the Blowout Card Forum there have recently been two crazy threads about modern cards being trimmed:

1) LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged
(see post 1,000 for some damning evidence and here for a summary)
2) Alleged Card Trimming Fraud, eBay IDs

What is especially interesting about these threads is that:
a) the Lebron thread has the most expensive modern basketball card in history (>$100K) being trimmed (I never would have expected that anyone would risk trimming a modern card that sells for that much unless it was from an uncut sheet)
b) The second thread shows the paper cutter being used by a fraudster to shave off 1/64 of an inch on cards, which evidently TPGs (PSA & BGS specifically) can't notice, because he seems to have lots of trimmed cards.

These threads are similar to the T206 auto thread here on Net54 in that they could drastically impact or even kill an entire market segment (in this case modern PSA/BGS 10s) because of the market's trust in TPGs.

Obviously trimming is not new in vintage baseball, since we know the most valuable vintage card in the world is trimmed. But what has amazed me in these threads is how rampant this seems to be across lots of modern PSA & BGS 10 cards. And how much it could hurt the modern PSA registry fad.

I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on how this scandal relates to vintage. Would shaving 1/64th an inch off a few sides of a vintage card increase the price dramatically? Do you think that TPGs would be more or less likely to spot vintage trimming?

Also, the above threads found all of their evidence with graded cards using Worthpoint and eBay sales. Because vintage isn't numbered and the higher grade cards are near impossible to distinguish one from another, do you think we can find and prove which dealers in the vintage market are participating in this kind of fraud and deceit? (I am assuming it is happening in vintage as well if it's rampant in modern)

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are some guys on Blowout who are just relentless about figuring stuff out. The discovery of the ebay seller advertising at Berkeley for an engineering student to modify a paper cutter is priceless. It's all probably far more pervasive than we believe and yeah, the TPG's are pretty limited but what do you expect for your $10?

[Bigdaddy]

As long as we keep up this crazy practice of exponential price differences between 8-9-10 grades, then this type of practice will be incentivized and rewarded by certain parts of the hobby. And the fact that the TPGs act as enablers - "resubmit and maybe get a bump in grade (and in the corresponding resale price)" only encourages the scammers.

The industry is ripe for a TPG that will use computer technology to give consistent and reproducible grades. Submit the same card 10 times and get the same grade every time. And it does not depend on the person who handles the card.

Computer vision systems could detect trimmed cards and other alterations and be completely automated. With facial recognition, image processing, machine learning, and other software technologies being used in so many other fields, it seems almost archaic to have cards graded the way they are now.

Reduce the incentives and reduce the alterations.

[SetBuilder]

Cue the "this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud" comment in 3.....2.....1.....

[egbeachley]

Wow. Over 3,000 posts and the evidence keeps coming.

I wonder if ebay has their old servers with auction scans from 1998.

[chalupacollects]

"I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on how this scandal relates to vintage. Would shaving 1/64th an inch off a few sides of a vintage card increase the price dramatically? Do you think that TPGs would be more or less likely to spot vintage trimming?"


The 1/64th inch trim is to be able to beat the TPG's over/under tolerance for measuring the size of the card. If a modern card measures 3 1/2" X 2 1/2" than according to the TPG's the tolerance for the card not being the exact measurement of the size is 1/32"

So if your card is off by less than 1/32" it is ok with them and considered an acceptable manufacture's tolerance...

If not it gets either a miscut or N6 designation (minimum size requirement)

And yes a trim that is real good that would get past the TPG's would theoretically make the card more valuable...

[iowadoc77]

this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As long as we keep up this crazy practice of exponential price differences between 8-9-10 grades, then this type of practice will be incentivized and rewarded by certain parts of the hobby. And the fact that the TPGs act as enablers - "resubmit and maybe get a bump in grade (and in the corresponding resale price)" only encourages the scammers.

The industry is ripe for a TPG that will use computer technology to give consistent and reproducible grades. Submit the same card 10 times and get the same grade every time. And it does not depend on the person who handles the card.

Computer vision systems could detect trimmed cards and other alterations and be completely automated. With facial recognition, image processing, machine learning, and other software technologies being used in so many other fields, it seems almost archaic to have cards graded the way they are now.

Reduce the incentives and reduce the alterations.

That would kill the tpg industry. They make $$$ of crackouts and resubs for higher grades.

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

+1

[Leon]

I tried reading the summary and it was too long. We need a summary of the summary!! Trimmed cards suck and it is not an exact science in determining it, imo.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Cue the "this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud" comment in 3.....2.....1.....

Cue the “I have lots of money in high grade slabbed cards so I better proactively denigrate those who might question the underlying assumptions about the industry” comments.

[Bpm0014]

I have a raw T206 set. A small percentage are beaters. But I feel like you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I find it interesting that with all the people who must have graded for PSA over the years, as far as I know, with the exception of Bill Hughes claiming PSA knew the Wagner was trimmed, there has not been a single public accusation of fraud or incompetence by an ex-grader.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I find it interesting that with all the people who must have graded for PSA over the years, as far as I know, with the exception of Bill Hughes claiming PSA knew the Wagner was trimmed, there has not been a single public accusation of fraud or incompetence by an ex-grader.

Does anyone know if they have employees sign NDAs? Pretty commonplace in industry today.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Does anyone know if they have employees sign NDAs? Pretty commonplace in industry today.

I have no idea if they do but every business should along with a non compete agreement.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I tried reading the summary and it was too long. We need a summary of the summary!! Trimmed cards suck and it is not an exact science in determining it, imo.

Super short version. A few more of the 1000's of scammers got pointed out. Everyone says what they collect has little or no fraud involved, they are all wrong. Little to nothing will be done to the scammers and in little to no time no one will care.

[Orioles1954]

Incredible research.

[frankbmd]

If one is talking about razor sharp corners on a T206, should not the next question be .........

How sharp were razors in 1910?

The unintended consequences of grading, slabbing, authentication and registries have opened the door for mischief and fraud. And yet ...............

The TPGs rake in the dough and the “sheeple” wait 2,3 or even 12 months for their services (?).

Wake up, sheeple. Preservation of a low or mid grade prewar card in a slab may be justified, but climbing the scale from 6 to 7 to 8 is an act of self-deception. How many 100 year old antiques (not restored) look like they were produced in the 21st century? Ty Cobb should have rounded corners and Matty isn’t always perfectly centered.

And with essentially only one registry ruling the roost, you are supporting the problem, not looking for a solution.

Competition in a market is generally a good thing, I think. When one entity has an 80% share of the market, look for them to maintain control, which may not be a good thing.

In the modern market, give me one hundred “pack fresh” cards and ask me to make three piles, 8, 9 and 10. Then give the same one hundred cards to another collector to make the same three piles. Would the piles be the same? I really doubt it and they may not even be close and yet when the cards come back slabbed, a 10 is worth 10 times the value of a 9, and a 9 is worth 10 times the value of an 8. And once again the TPGs rake in the dough and the “sheeple” play along not only once, but again and again. Lottery psychology drives the market, maintains control and that 80% market share.

[Leon]

How much were the shipping charges? Then someone will care!!

From my experience I believe pre-war cards with big, rounded borders have been trimmed less than higher end cards with smaller borders and have confirmed that again in the last few days .

Originally Posted by bnorth

Super short version. A few more of the 1000's of scammers got pointed out. Everyone says what they collect has little or no fraud involved, they are all wrong. Little to nothing will be done to the scammers and in little to no time no one will care.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Does anyone know if they have employees sign NDAs? Pretty commonplace in industry today.

Sure you can protect proprietary information to some extent but you can't extract a vow of omerta.

[Peter_Spaeth]

..

[Bpm0014]

Ty Cobb should have rounded corners and Matty isn’t always perfectly centered.

Amen Frank!

[barrysloate]

I don't think the realization that trimmed cards are being slabbed will have that much of an impact on the hobby for a simple reason: too many very wealthy and powerful people have huge amounts of money invested in slabbed cards, and they will not let anything get in the way of them profiting on their investment. The news will just get swept under the rug like so many other things in our world today.

In short, financial gain trumps the truth.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have no idea if they do but every business should along with a non compete agreement.

Nope. PSA is California-based and our laws basically prohibit employee non-compete contracts except when the employee is a selling owner of the business.

NDAs, however, are not only allowed, they are commonplace in some industries, especially entertainment. You wanna clean toilets in Burbank (home of Warner Bros, Nickelodeon, Disney, etc.) you're probably gonna sign a non-disclosure agreement. After all, no telling what Nickelodeon might do with information on Disney execs' pooing habits.

PS: Barry is right, as is Frank.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't think the realization that trimmed cards are being slabbed will have that much of an impact on the hobby for a simple reason: too many very wealthy and powerful people have huge amounts of money invested in slabbed cards, and they will not let anything get in the way of them profiting on their investment. The news will just get swept under the rug like so many other things in our world today.

In short, financial gain trumps the truth.

I wonder how many of the newer generation of collectors even care.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wonder how many of the newer generation of collectors even care.

They probably do not. If the slab says it's good, then it's good.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Leon

I tried reading the summary and it was too long. We need a summary of the summary!! Trimmed cards suck and it is not an exact science in determining it, imo.

Summary of the Summary:

A key basketball card is a LeBron Exquisite of which 99 were made. Many of the high grade ones have prior auction scans that show damage that was “removed” by micro-trimming (like the T206 autograph scam identified here). A specific card numbered 87/99 was identified and everyone who touched it denied trimming it including a key individual who stated he bought it from a collection in 2014.....then an old screenshot shows the untrimmed version for sale by this individual in 2013. Further tracking finds this individual hiring a Cal-Berkeley student to modify an industrial paper trimmer to remove exactly 1/64 inches.

The ad may have been from another person as it was hard to follow.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

They probably do not. If the slab says it's good, then it's good.

Barry you may recall the great Wallace Stevens line, What we said of it became a part of what it was.

[Leon]

How about if those non compete contracts were paid for with compensation in order to be able to be upheld?

Non Competes are also void in Texas, I believe, unless there is compensation to the employee for signing it. At least that is what I was told when I was given a $5000 check for signing one (a long time ago).

and back to the original trimming issue. Thanks Eric (post 27)....that one I followed.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Nope. PSA is California-based and our laws basically prohibit employee non-compete contracts except when the employee is a selling owner of the business.

NDAs, however, are not only allowed, they are commonplace in some industries, especially entertainment. You wanna clean toilets in Burbank (home of Warner Bros, Nickelodeon, Disney, etc.) you're probably gonna sign a non-disclosure agreement. After all, no telling what Nickelodeon might do with information on Disney execs' pooing habits.

PS: Barry is right, as is Frank.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry you may recall the great Wallace Stevens line, What we said of it became a part of what it was.

..I was born around the corner from where he was born....small world..

..

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

Non Competes are also void in Texas, I believe, unless there is compensation to the employee for signing it. At least that is what I was told when I was given a $5000 check for signing one (a long time ago).

Correct, they are not enforceable, but I don't know about the compensation part. Seems reasonable that you could be sued for breach of contract though if you broke it.

As far as NDAs, I was told they are not enforceable either in Texas, but I don't know that for sure. I've signed confidentiality agreements (I guess that's the same thing as an NDA), but I was told by others that they're not enforceable.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry you may recall the great Wallace Stevens line, What we said of it became a part of what it was.

Don't recall the line, but it's as true today as it was when he wrote it.

[Exhibitman]

"How about if those non compete contracts were paid for with compensation in order to be able to be upheld?"

Doesn't matter in Cali: the contract is illegal regardless of whether you paid or got paid to enter into it. Texas, I have no idea.

But I digress.

Unfortunately, as is apparent in the threads on Blowout (and indeed in much of public life today), even in the face of hard evidence there is a segment of the population that will cling to false ideas; whether out of greed, stupidity or other reasons, who can say? It is only made worse in this hobby by the long history of wrong grades and wrong conclusions by TPGs. After all, if they got the grade wrong, authenticated a fake or pre-print, etc., then maybe there is a chance they got this one right despite the pre- and post-operative images. Or maybe the scanner caused the card to look trimmed or damaged. Or maybe a flying monkey spirited the card away to Oz and magically transformed it into a ten. All are equally likely...denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

"I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on how this scandal relates to vintage. Would shaving 1/64th an inch off a few sides of a vintage card increase the price dramatically? Do you think that TPGs would be more or less likely to spot vintage trimming?"


The 1/64th inch trim is to be able to beat the TPG's over/under tolerance for measuring the size of the card. If a modern card measures 3 1/2" X 2 1/2" than according to the TPG's the tolerance for the card not being the exact measurement of the size is 1/32"

So if your card is off by less than 1/32" it is ok with them and considered an acceptable manufacture's tolerance...

If not it gets either a miscut or N6 designation (minimum size requirement)

And yes a trim that is real good that would get past the TPG's would theoretically make the card more valuable...

Can you tell if a card has been trimmed recently versus a card that was cut short from the factory? At least PSA thinks they can. They reject cards for min size (factory cut small) and trimmed. For the 1st they don't charge you a grading fee, but for altered they do charge you. I am not sure on the others if the differentiate between the two or just call everything small trimmed.

[doug.goodman]

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

[iowadoc77]

The National was jam packed with "commodity brokers" of cards and there was plenty of action at their tables with people handing across their PSA 10s and BGS 9.5s and very few were looking at anything other than the flip, and especially the subgrades for the BGS. Then they would spit out a number and a transaction would either happen or the person who brought the card would go to the next table and the exact same thing would happen. Over and over and over. No "nice for the grade". No "great eye appeal". Only the almighty flip. And the grading companies know this and thrive on this. And why wouldn't they. Tom Brady Contenders 9 vs 10- not a lot of difference in condition, but a big flippin difference in price!
And this isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The action at the National was at these tables. By far!
I like my low and midgrade collection. I couldn't afford most of the cards i have in high grade. But to each their own. There isn't a right or wrong way to do this, just different opinions. But popular opinion favors the flip

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Like it, or him, or not, David Hall certainly read the tea leaves very well when he started all this.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Cue the “I have lots of money in high grade slabbed cards so I better proactively denigrate those who might question the underlying assumptions about the industry” comments.

How many times did we see that in the T206 thread alone.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

Happily, most people on this board aren't one of these. Most people here are just collector-types who like honest wear.

[AGuinness]

What amazes me about both the T206 forgeries and this trimming scandal is that, to the best of my knowledge, no TPG has publicly addressed it in any way. I would have thought at least one might have issued a statement to say that they're doing the best they can, going to be more diligent, etc., even if it is just hot air. But their silence probably says more than any statement would, including that they expect these revelations to blow over, perhaps.

And FWIW, the BO board has approximately 40,000 members while this board has approximately 10,000. I wonder if those numbers reflect the general collecting population when it comes to vintage vs modern cards...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

What amazes me about both the T206 forgeries and this trimming scandal is that, to the best of my knowledge, no TPG has publicly addressed it in any way. I would have thought at least one might have issued a statement to say that they're doing the best they can, going to be more diligent, etc., even if it is just hot air. But their silence probably says more than any statement would, including that they expect these revelations to blow over, perhaps.

And FWIW, the BO board has approximately 40,000 members while this board has approximately 10,000. I wonder if those numbers reflect the general collecting population when it comes to vintage vs modern cards...

I would think from all the previous scandals in the hobby they have learned silence is buy far the best answer.

EDIT: I know there are a lot of us that are members on both forums.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

...

In the modern market, give me one hundred “pack fresh” cards and ask me to make three piles, 8, 9 and 10. Then give the same one hundred cards to another collector to make the same three piles. Would the piles be the same? I really doubt it and they may not even be close and yet when the cards come back slabbed, a 10 is worth 10 times the value of a 9, and a 9 is worth 10 times the value of an 8. And once again the TPGs rake in the dough and the “sheeple” play along not only once, but again and again. Lottery psychology drives the market, maintains control and that 80% market share.

They performed this very experiment in the coin collecting hobby in court, Frank, and the results were exactly what you have postulated--no consistency!

Best wishes,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

A big +1 as to those that buy the holder instead of the card. Especially as to newer cards, where thousands exist in higher grades, there is no way that the premium price of a "10" can be justified over that of an "8" or even a "7" from the perspective of the actual differences in the quality of the cards.

Right on,

Larry

[egbeachley]

The only way this gets everyone’s attention is if ESPN does a write-up on this scandal. It’s possible since it indirectly involves LeBron and the numbers thrown out are $100K or more.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

A big +1 as to those that buy the holder instead of the card. Especially as to newer cards, where thousands exist in higher grades, there is no way that the premium price of a "10" can be justified over that of an "8" or even a "7" from the perspective of the actual differences in the quality of the cards.

Right on,

Larry

True, the way you frame the inquiry, but as we have discussed here many times that's entirely beside the point. The flip is the commodity that is being bought and sold, not the card.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

True, the way you frame the inquiry, but as we have discussed here many times that's entirely beside the point. The flip is the commodity that is being bought and sold, not the card.

Sad but true, Pete.

Highest regards,

Larry

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

The only way this gets everyone’s attention is if ESPN does a write-up on this scandal. It’s possible since it indirectly involves LeBron and the numbers thrown out are $100K or more.

Put Darren Rovell on it. He would do a story on it. Anything money and sports he’s all over it.

[SetBuilder]

Is this normal with modern cards?

I found this LeBron James auto/patch card that sold for $4,755 in a BGS 9 holder.
Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...site-919702239

Then the same card (which I'm pretty sure it's the same card even if I can't see the serial number...the auto is exactly the same) magically re-appears in a BGS 9.5 holder and sells for a staggering $40,000.
Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...mes-1923179380

I can see how the surface grade can improve with some simple dirt removal, but how did the corners, centering, and edges somehow improve between 2014 and 2018?

Do these cards get better with age, like fine wines?

[mrvster]

wow.....that's crazy.....