Ty Cobb and the hobby

[Snapolit1]

In the 10 years or so I've been collecting, Cobb has always been in the upper upper echelon of collecting. A top 5 guy. As evidenced by the post below this and many others. I've always wondered what factors play into the enduring fascination with Cobb. Great ball player? Of course. But many great players don't seem to have captured the imagination to anywhere near the degree Cobb has. Great person? Well, probably not. Though I guess it's now widely agreed that he has been misrepresented and misconstrued to probably a large degree. By one author in particular. But he hardly was an altar boy type like Christy Mathewson. Wonder what factors fuel the never ending interest in Cobby? He has some great cards to be sure, but so do folks like Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker and Eddie Collins. Just curious why some guys take off and others never really do. Obviously has more to do with just the numbers on the back of the card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In the 10 years or so I've been collecting, Cobb has always been in the upper upper echelon of collecting. A top 5 guy. As evidenced by the post below this and many others. I've always wondered what factors play into the enduring fascination with Cobb. Great ball player? Of course. But many great players don't seem to have captured the imagination to anywhere near the degree Cobb has. Great person? Well, probably not. Though I guess it's now widely agreed that he has been misrepresented and misconstrued to probably a large degree. By one author in particular. But he hardly was an altar boy type like Christy Mathewson. Wonder what factors fuel the never ending interest in Cobby? He has some great cards to be sure, but so do folks like Walter Johnson, Tris Speaker and Eddie Collins. Just curious why some guys take off and others never really do. Obviously has more to do with just the numbers on the back of the card.

For me, it's some mystique and the fact he has the highest batting average of all time.

He must have been special. Who else got a LaSalle?
.

[Zach Wheat]

Nice card Leon. I have always felt he was misrepresented. He is one my favorite pre-war players.

[NYYFan63]

Oops wrong thread


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[jsfriedm]

Because he was considered the GOAT long before that term was invented. The relationship between player accomplishments and card prices aren't linear, not for Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker or for Willie Mays and Frank Robinson. An old joke that many have probably already heard:

A man walks into a bar and says, "my dog can talk."
Bartender: "Yeah, right. If your dog can talk, you can drink for free."
Man: "Okay, here, I'll show you. What's on top of a house?"
Dog: "Roof!"
Man: "How does sandpaper feel?"
Dog: "Rough!"
Man: "Who was the greatest player of all time?"
Dog: "Ruth!"
Bartender: "That dog can't talk! Get out of here!"
Dog to man on the way home: "Think I should have said Ty Cobb?"

[Casey2296]

-
I prefer Cobb to Ruth, I like Cobbs mystique, passion for the game, and that he was/is misunderstood. His teammates didn't like him but they respected him, baseball was not a popularity contest for Cobb, it was a burning passion to win.

He was a smart businessman and also generous.

The non profit hospital he started in 1950 has grown to what is now the Ty Cobb Healthcare System, a private self supporting nonprofit health care organization consisting of Cobb Memorial Hospital, Cobb Terrace Personal Care Center, Brown Memorial Convalescent Center, Cobb Health Care Center, Home Base Health Services, Cobb Center, Inc., and Hart County Hospital.

And he has some of the best looking baseball cards...
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[GaryPassamonte]

Americans like rascals better than good guys. They're just more exciting and interesting. Although much of Cobb's less than stellar reputation may have been fabricated, it still has been perceived as true until recently.

[BioCRN]

It's not very fair because Babe Ruth had an age advantage by the time he was a superstar, but Ruth and Cobb were constantly compared.

Cobb already had a high profile, but Ruth helped elevate it further. They both innovated what greatness in the game can look like.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

Because he was considered the GOAT long before that term was invented. The relationship between player accomplishments and card prices aren't linear, not for Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker or for Willie Mays and Frank Robinson. An old joke that many have probably already heard:

A man walks into a bar and says, "my dog can talk."
Bartender: "Yeah, right. If your dog can talk, you can drink for free."
Man: "Okay, here, I'll show you. What's on top of a house?"
Dog: "Roof!"
Man: "How does sandpaper feel?"
Dog: "Rough!"
Man: "Who was the greatest player of all time?"
Dog: "Ruth!"
Bartender: "That dog can't talk! Get out of here!"
Dog to man on the way home: "Think I should have said Ty Cobb?"

Ha ha ha! Now that's funny, sir!

I have read that Cobb as a pariah was the result of one man, a writer with some sort of vendetta. It only adds to the mystique. I have read accounts by his peers that, on the field, he was no worse than many, many others. Highest batting average ever is good enough for me. I have some very nice Ty Cobb items, and I am happy and grateful to have them. Not the least of which is a t205 that I got just before the Covid card value explosion. He's in my personal top 5 of all-time.

[atx840]

I am a simple man, let's see some cards!

[ClementeFanOh]

Well, he hit .300 23 (!!) consecutive times and won a double digit number of batting titles, after all… Trent King

[DeanH3]

Cobb was so dominate that it's no surprise his legacy lives on.

[boneheadandrube]

The only thing I don't understand is why people call him "Cobby". I think if you called him that to his face he might try to slap your teeth out.

[VintageBen]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

-
I prefer Cobb to Ruth, I like Cobbs mystique, passion for the game, and that he was and is misunderstood. His teammates didn't like him but they respected him, baseball was not a popularity contest for Cobb, it was a burning passion to win.

He was a smart businessman and also generous.

The non profit hospital he started in 1950 has grown to what is now the Ty Cobb Healthcare System, a private self supporting nonprofit health care organization consisting of Cobb Memorial Hospital, Cobb Terrace Personal Care Center, Brown Memorial Convalescent Center, Cobb Health Care Center, Home Base Health Services, Cobb Center, Inc., and Hart County Hospital.

And he has some of the best looking baseball cards...
-

I love that CJ Cobb!!!!

[Kawika]

Gotta love Ty Cobb. Intense player. Legendary skills. Great cards. Looks like a nice guy to me.

[Jeff1970Red]

I grew up idolizing Rose who was always chasing Cobb

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even by the numbers Cobb was clearly better than Speaker or Collins.

[Keith H. Thompson]

and can be checked, but I remember -- "I should have said Dimaggio"

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I've always wondered what factors play into the enduring fascination with Cobb.

There are several (on and off-the-field) factors fueling Cobb’s continued legacy. I could write a thesis on each one, but will avoid a Bob C. type post.

Cobb was baseball’s original greatest all-time player, and I’d argue still is today. It wasn’t until modern time that people placed Ruth ahead of Cobb. However, Cobb and Ruth’s contemporaries, who saw their entire careers, said Cobb was better. Cobb was the first player elected to the Hall. He received more votes than Ruth, Wagner, Mathewson, and Johnson.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even by the numbers Cobb was clearly better than Speaker or Collins.

Oh sure. Didn't suggest otherwise.

Walter Johnson is one of the best 5 pitchers of all time. And seldom if ever do I hear a buzz about collecting him.

[Pat R]

Career leaders

AVG = #1
Hits = #2
Runs scored = #2
Doubles = #4
Triples = #2
Stolen bases = #4
RBI's = #8
OBP = #11

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Oh sure. Didn't suggest otherwise.

Walter Johnson is one of the best 5 pitchers of all time. And seldom if ever do I hear a buzz about collecting him.

Pitchers just don't have the same hobby attraction, but that said I do think people collect Johnson.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Career leaders

AVG = #1
Hits = #2
Runs scored = #2
Doubles = #4
Triples = #2
Stolen bases = #4
RBI's = #8
OBP = #11

Numbers are certainly important, but if you follow the hobby it it's clear other forces are at work too. Not breaking news.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pitchers just don't have the same hobby attraction, but that said I do think people collect Johnson.

I would agree, Johnson & Matty are two that come to mind that eclipse most other pitchers in the hobby.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would agree, Johnson & Matty are two that come to mind that eclipse most other pitchers in the hobby.

Even more so in the modern realm.
5,000 DeGrom refractors gets you one Jasson Dominquez.

[mordecaibrown1]

Cobb, Ruth, Matty, Joe J., Wags, Cy, along with some others arel excellent choices!

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

and can be checked, but I remember -- "I should have said Dimaggio"

It was a cartoon. I think a Looney Tunes short. I remember that one too.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would agree, Johnson & Matty are two that come to mind that eclipse most other pitchers in the hobby.

I would add Cy Young to that list. Johnson, Mathewson and Young are in a class by themselves when it comes to pre-war pitchers.

I have always felt that Alexander, Grove and Nichols are underrated, but the hobby will never view them the same as the above three.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I would add Cy Young to that list. Johnson, Mathewson and Young are in a class by themselves when it comes to pre-war pitchers.

I have always felt that Alexander, Grove and Nichols are underrated, but the hobby will never view them the same as the above three.

So many times we point out how much being on a good team helps a player. For instance, switch Matty and Alex... let Alex pitch for quality teams in the Polo Grounds and Matty for Philadelphia at Baker Bowl and watch what happens to their relative numbers.

But with Walter, he already was on a weak team. That's why, to me Walter is undoubtedly the best pitcher ever, and there shouldn't be one bit of debate about it. I mean, discussions are fun but at the end of the day, the conclusion should be unanimous.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So many times we point out how much being on a good team helps a player. For instance, switch Matty and Alex... let Alex pitch for quality teams in the Polo Grounds and Matty for Philadelphia at Baker Bowl and watch what happens to their relative numbers.

But with Walter, he already was on a weak team. That's why, to me Walter is undoubtedly the best pitcher ever, and there shouldn't be one bit of debate about it. I mean, discussions are fun but at the end of the day, the conclusion should be unanimous.

100% agree Mark, imagine the Big Train as a Giant, Tiger, Cub, Pirate in that era.

[Touch'EmAll]

Love the picture Kawika posted of Cobb & Matty!

The foremost reason why he has his top tier place in the hobby is because on the field he was truly great. Best of his era and then some.

I've posted about this before, always amazing when I think about it, but Ruth defeated Walter Johnson 5 out of 6 of their head-to-head matchups.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Love the picture Kawika posted of Cobb & Matty!

The foremost reason why he has his top tier place in the hobby is because on the field he was truly great. Best of his era and then some.

I've posted about this before, always amazing when I think about it, but Ruth defeated Walter Johnson 5 out of 6 of their head-to-head matchups.

Interesting stats from Fenway101 regarding Johnson pitching/Ruth batting.

Let’s take a look. In 107 at bats, Babe hit .280 with 8 doubles, 2 triples and 7 home runs. He walked 19 times giving Babe an on base percentage of .389, and Ole Walter punched him out 25 times. Not bad, but let’s take a closer look. Babe hit .342 lifetime but Johnson held him 62 points under his lifetime mark. In his career, his home run to at bat ratio was 1 homer in every 11.76 at bats; against Johnson he hit a homer in every 15.29 at bats. Babe whiffed 1 in every 6.43 at bats but when he faced the Big Train, he went down swinging once every 4.28 at bats. Babe’s numbers against Johnson were pretty damn good however, in essence, the Big Train reduced the Sultan of Swat to a mere mortal.

However, there is a flip side. Throughout Johnson’s career, opponents hit .222 against him. He surrendered a total of, ready for this, 97 home runs. THAT’S IT!! That translates to a home run every 227.2 batters! The on base percentage of opposing batters throughout Johnson’s career was .281. So, if you consider that Babe took him deep once every 15.29 at bats and hit him at a .280 clip and got on base 39% of the time then one could conclude that Babe reduced the great Big Train Walter Johnson to a mere mortal as well.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

It was a cartoon. I think a Looney Tunes short. I remember that one too.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C46E&FORM=VIRE

[abothebear]

This is not presented as an argument against others' comments. All make good points. This is just another factor to consider.

The rise of major league baseball in national prominence coincides with Cobb's career (and others' careers). But those two things also coincide with the rise of Ford Motors and the rise of the city of Detroit, where Cobb played essentially the entirety of his career. Automobiles and Detroit were the hottest things going, and Cobb was their mega-star in the hottest sport going. During Cobb's career, Detroit's population went from 250k to 1.6 million people, a 600% increase. And the city was well on its way to becoming the richest city in the world. Additionally, a great many of these new Detroit residents were immigrants or transplants from other parts of the U.S. One might argue that Cobb's serendipitous Detroit connection also provided him a human network to national and global fame. If Detroit hadn't crashed like it did, perhaps Cobb would be an even bigger name in the hobby today.

Potentially related... have you ever noticed the disproportionately high representation of Michigan folks in the hobby? Even if very few are pre-war aficionados, I'm sure they all know of Cobb and think of him as their representative old-timer.

As a youngster, I'd play hockey in the gym with my friends after school. We had a habit of "calling" who we were going to be in any sport we played. With hockey, none of us had cable or could stay up late enough to watch hockey on TV anyway. We had no idea who played in the NHL - except for Gretzky, Lemieux, and Yzerman. They were the only ones we knew, and we didn't even really know them. Cobb is like that for the average baseball fan. He has a great name, notoriety, memorable stat accomplishments, and played for a classic franchise. In a pick-up game where you'd be restricted to "calling" pre-war players only, I bet you'd get Cobb, Ruth, maybe Gehrig, DiMaggio because of the song, maybe Cy Young because of the award, possibly Honus Wagner because of the card (not because people knew if he was a great player or not), and that's about it. Baseball fans and hobbiest outside of pre-war, if they dip their toes or dive into it, this is what they start with. At least that was my experience.

This is, I think, the second ever pre-war card I was able to acquire, I hope it is Cobb, because that is who I keep saying it is...


.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by abothebear

I hope it is Cobb, because that is who I keep saying it is...


.

It must be. No infielder dared get near him sliding in.

[Jobu]

A Cobb-owned photo of a young Tyrus honing his business acumen.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

I've posted about this before, always amazing when I think about it, but Ruth defeated Walter Johnson 5 out of 6 of their head-to-head matchups.

Interesting...I wonder how Walter Johnson did batting against Babe Ruth? Johnson was a pretty decent hitter for a pitcher.

Brian

[Louisville_Hugger]

Originally Posted by Jobu

A Cobb-owned photo of a young Tyrus honing his business acumen.

A younger Jude Law would’ve been a dead ringer to play Cobb in a movie.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Louisville_Hugger

A younger Jude Law would’ve been a dead ringer to play Cobb in a movie.

Agreed! And it’s only a matter of time before that photo/cabinet scammer takes a picture of Jude law and tries to pass it off as Cobb, demonstrating that it is in fact Cobb by comparing the ears and insisting that it is Cobb despite clear evidence provided by a forum of people proving otherwise

[Directly]

No offense--but does everybody believe Ruth was a saint?--Both were the best, but??

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Gotta love Ty Cobb. Intense player. Legendary skills. Great cards. Looks like a nice guy to me.

Such a great photo David!

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Directly

No offense--but does everybody believe Ruth was a saint?--Both were the best, but??

No, but for good or for bad, or for both, Ruth is probably the most iconic athlete the US has ever had. (I guess you could debate Jordan.) Multiple movies, dozens of books, legends, myths, elementary school books, plays, etc. While Cobb was a singularly great hitter, I just don't see him as the kind of mythical persona that Ruth embodied. Sort of like Michael Jordan and Larry Bird. Yes, Bird amazing. But Jordan grabbed the culture, hard core and casual fans, in a way Bird never did.

People like to project onto these people attributes and mythical powers. Mickey Mantle case study no 1. Hell, I'd say Mantle has captured the imagination of people more than Mays or Aaron.

[robw1959]

Don't forget that Cobb was a terrific outfielder as well. I think the answer to the OP has been pretty well summed up here. In 1936, he garnered more votes than any of the other Hall of Fame inaugurals including Ruth, who tied with Honus Wagner for second place.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd say Mantle has captured the imagination of people more than Mays or Aaron.

Very true. Mantle is a top 5 "what if" player. The other guys' what ifs typically involve lost military service years, or not getting an opportunity due to racism, etc.

What if Mantle didn't step on that sprinkler head during the 1951 World Series and blow out his knee? What if he took better care of himself, and didn't party as much?

He may very well have ended up the greatest of all-time.

[Yoda]

In that interesting 'foto it appears that young Tyrus is about to buy a boatload of Coco Cola stock.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

No, but for good or for bad, or for both, Ruth is probably the most iconic athlete the US has ever had. (I guess you could debate Jordan.) Multiple movies, dozens of books, legends, myths, elementary school books, plays, etc. While Cobb was a singularly great hitter, I just don't see him as the kind of mythical persona that Ruth embodied. Sort of like Michael Jordan and Larry Bird. Yes, Bird amazing. But Jordan grabbed the culture, hard core and casual fans, in a way Bird never did.

People like to project onto these people attributes and mythical powers. Mickey Mantle case study no 1. Hell, I'd say Mantle has captured the imagination of people more than Mays or Aaron.

Don't forget Ali.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Don't forget that Cobb was a terrific outfielder as well.

What's the evidence for Cobb having been a terrific outfielder? I don't necessarily love WAR's defensive metrics, especially going that far back, but Baseball Reference has Cobb as being worth negative defensive WAR almost every year of his career, and -10.8 total.

[MantleMarisFordBerra]

Originally Posted by abothebear

DiMaggio because of the song

.

For what's it's worth SoundGarden has a song called Ty Cobb:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_or_Gf7vqqo

Language warning

[steve B]

I might have missed it, but I think some of Cobbs hobby popularity is a matter of timing.
Aside from the career stats, the multi year leadup to Rose breaking the career hits record also meant Cobb got just as much press as Rose did. And at a time when the hobby was exploding. at least as early as 81 some discussions were if the strike would affect Roses Chance at breaking Cobbs record. Yes, even as distant as those chances seemed at the time.

[Exhibitman]

These:




An entire generation of kids who came up during the big bang of collecting grew up knowing Cobb from the Topps historical subsets and are now in their 50s-60s. I know that had a powerful impact on me as a kid collector. I WANTED career-issued cards of the guys in those sets.