Cards still being outed on Blowout -- PSA 9 Monte Irvin in the recent ML

[Peter_Spaeth]

Judge for yourself.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=134

[Peter_Spaeth]

And this is the Jackie he references.

Disturbing, if true.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=130

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Judge for yourself.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=134

Not gonna judge because this is the hobby in 2023. Not ever sure who is to blame either. I just know it is not for me but not a shock either. I would love to be able to conclude that it does not impact me, directly but this kinda shit happens on valuable lower grade stuff too.

The irony since this exact house just had 3 or 4 threads dedicated to it and filled with posts by members here who could not be any more effusive with compliments.

Gonna have to start paying more attention to that board it is better suited to watchdog posts like that.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And this is the Jackie he references.

Disturbing, if true.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=130

LOL, seriously do more than 3 people care? If you are buying a PSA 9 vintage card you know it is altered or you have your head buried so deep only your toes stick out.

[scooter729]

At least the altered Irvin card was shipped quickly!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by scooter729

At least the altered Irvin card was shipped quickly!

Zing!

Funny ML pulled one of my graded consignments based on a board members opinion to authenticity. Maybe if they'd known before they could have pulled this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Zing!

Funny ML pulled one of my graded consignments based on a board members opinion to authenticity. Maybe if they'd known before they could have pulled this.

Not to single anyone out because most do it, but if you're willing to accept consignments from people with bad reputations or who have now been specifically outed, then inevitably you are going to get some bad cards.

[Johnny630]

One word I can use to describe how the hobby in general feels about this in 2023.... Apathetic they just don’t broadly give a Sh$t if it’s in a holder with number grade.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

One word I can use to describe how the hobby in general feels about this in 2023.... Apathetic they just don’t broadly give a Sh$t if it’s in a holder with number grade.

I believe it has been like that since grading became a thing. A few have always cared but overall nobody cares. I have been on this forum for 10 years now and this has always been the same discussion on here.

[Exhibitman]

I should be shocked and scandalized and should say it is a



day for the hobby, but given what is now reams of evidence of doctoring on postwar high numbered slabs, my reaction is really more



The risks and consequences are known, like smoking, and if someone still is willing to go there and winds up with an altered card, instead of outrage, I am at the



stage.

The best way to deal with this stuff is to not play in the first place. Just don't.

[Bored5000]

On a percentage basis, that Monte Irvin has to be tough to beat of any doctored card -- from $50 to $30,000.

[D. Bergin]

LOL, I’m having a hard time getting 3’s and 4’s on seemingly very well preserved cards. How the hell are the grading companies still handing out 9’s on 53 Topps, without being suspicious of it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

LOL, I’m having a hard time getting 3’s and 4’s on seemingly very well preserved cards. How the hell are the grading companies still handing out 9’s on 53 Topps, without being suspicious of it?

Once more, with feeling. All submitters are equal. Some submitters are more equal than others.

[Snapolit1]

Let’s all say it loud and with feeling …..

Cards*that*are*70, or 80, or 100 years old*will*not*naturally*exist*in*pristine*condition *

[Snowman]

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And this is the Jackie he references.

Disturbing, if true.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=130

That's a reflection on what he's calling a rebuilt upper right corner.

Here's a different image from another sale of the same card.
53 Robinson.jpg

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

It was so people would stop being fooled by sharpie markers on 71' Topps cards...full stop.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The irony is so rich that PSA supposedly was started to put a stop to card doctoring.

What’s the saying? “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em!”

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It was so people would stop being fooled by sharpie markers on 71' Topps cards...full stop.

Those would probably make it through the assembly line now. There is probably one blacklight in the grading room that is broken out for special occasions.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, seriously do more than 3 people care? If you are buying a PSA 9 vintage card you know it is altered or you have your head buried so deep only your toes stick out.

If I was an innocent buyer who learned about this blasphemy, I might have a few sharp question for ML.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

If I was an innocent buyer who learned about this blasphemy, I might have a few sharp question for ML.

The slab and flip give auction houses the perfect cover. It's a rigged game.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If people didn't pay stupid money for cards in these grades, then there wouldn't be any incentive for these guys to keep churning out altered cards. I think this is the reason nobody cares. Because a lot of the high end buyers actually are aware that this is happening on a large scale, and it simply doesn't bother them. I know Rick Probstein said it wouldn't bother him at all if he learned that numerous cards in his collection were found to have been altered. He just wants that high grade and that PSA slab stamp of approval. And Nat Turner is another high end buyer who without question now knows the extent to which these cards are altered, and it hasn't changed his buying habits one bit either.

I think Evan Mathis was right when he said that these guys just don't care how a card got into that 10 holder, they just want that 10 or that 9. He mentioned a story about needing a 10 for one of his registry sets but no 10s existed yet, so he called up some cards doctors he knew and tried to have them create one for him. That's what these guys want.

This is an entirely self-owned problem. I have zero sympathy for these guys buying these cards. And from their perspective, it's pretty much no risk because they can always just find another buyer for them. Even if the card gets outed, nobody cares. Not even the FBI.

A fool and his money will soon part.

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

100 percent that the big money doesn’t care. Just another example of the power of grading card companies.
These blowout posts are useful, but I agree, nobody cares.

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

[Lorewalker]

I think more collectors cared when it appeared something might actually be done about it. And while it might not be accepted by the entire industry I think many just remain silent because how many times can you whine and complain before you annoy everyone? I think there are a lot of collectors who would support the hobby being cleaned up, if that were possible. It is undeniable that there is a segment of the hobby who truly does not care and we have seen posts by some of them here.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I say no one cares sometimes for effect, or because I'm so disgusted, but the truth is a lot of people still do. And that's why none of these asshats who facilitate the card doctors' sales EVER disclose alterations. If nobody truly cared, why not just disclose?

Part of the fun here is that it seems like a hopeless business.

Let’s say I have some high grade cards. I hope they’re legit and not doctored. I’ve dug around on the lists of doctored cards to make sure mine are not on those lists. I suppose that’s a good first step. If I did have pieces that were on the list, I’m not sure what I would do about it, particularly if I picked them up years and years ago. Probably include a disclosure about it being on the list when I go to sell?

But when I hear about some high grade cards that are doctored, what should I do? Do I make a bunch of noise and jump up and down? Post stuff around here berating the TPG responsible? Do I send a strongly worded letter to PSA? Do I stop using PSA to grade my cards? Maybe that’s what people are hoping for, so PSA will lose market share and feel our collective wrath and desire to atone for their previous sins of not catching these alterations.

Obviously that seems like an unlikely outcome.

About the only other option available to me is to dump all of my PSA graded stuff, either out of principle or because I’m paranoid that someday everything I hold will lose value when the shine comes off of the PSA brand due to their many failures. And from henceforth I only collect raw stuff that I hope hasn’t been altered?

I suppose that’s an option, but it seems to be a pretty extreme approach to take.

But maybe others have some brilliant ideas on the appropriate approach for someone who cares but also happens to have an extensive existing collection built largely around high grade pieces graded by the TPGs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you care to the point where if you found out a specific card was altered, you no longer would want to own it? Or are you just worried about the value of the flip?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you care to the point where if you found out a specific card was altered, you no longer would want to own it? Or are you just worried about the value of the flip?

Cool. Let’s dig deep into my motives to make sure they are sufficiently pure.

First and most importantly, I would certainly enjoy it less. Every time I saw it, I would shake my head and glare at it menacingly, holding that I could somehow avoid the conundrum now facing me, and perhaps cleanse it of iniquity through the power of my disdain. And I would probably cast about, trying to figure out what I should do with it, and how to get rid of it, since it no longer brings me pleasure.

I’m not sure how I go about getting rid of it though. It seems like it’s not appropriate to sell it to someone else. PSA isn’t going to honor their guarantee. SGC has no guarantee (other than the false advertising one in the name).

Do I chuck it on the burn pile and burn it?

Obviously that’s easier to do if it’s not worth much. If it was worth 5 or 6 figures, now it’s a serious pickle.

[Lorewalker]

Aren't we all taking a leap of faith when we pay large and sometimes huge premiums for the graded material we put our money into? Are we doing so be cause we believe the company is solid and will continue to be respected enough at least until we deem it time to sell? Or possibly because we know there are others who are buying into the same brand? How many people have to exit before the value of that holder is diminished? What if, as has happened, one of those companies goes under for fraud? Sure we still own the card but how much of that card's value is due to the initials on the holder? And what if that card in that holder is altered or might be altered and it cannot go into another company's holder with a numerical grade?

[BioCRN]

I'm 100% sure that some cards that only bring 2-3 figures are being doctored pre-submission/re-submission, but those buyers generally don't have the voice or resources to elevate the issue as a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Those that have 5-6+ figures to spend on a slab are the ones that can police this issue and they don't seem to be doing it. I don't know if they have some kind of sunk cost issue where they don't want to disrupt the market/portfoliio they've already invested in or if they're ignorant it's happening on the scale it's happening.

This is before taking into consideration the sheer amount of doctored stuff that happened decades before grading was even a thing and had a chance to "naturally" age, hiding some of the doctoring that was done decades ago.

I think every grader out there has issues with some stuff like 1955 Bowman baseball, which is all over the place pack-fresh. I've seen an enormous amount of 55 Bowman baseball in slabs that doesn't seem to pass the eye test, but it's out-of-the-factory variation gives it a lot of cover for grading.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Aren't we all taking a leap of faith when we pay large and sometimes huge premiums for the graded material we put our money into? Are we doing so be cause we believe the company is solid and will continue to be respected enough at least until we deem it time to sell? Or possibly because we know there are others who are buying into the same brand? How many people have to exit before the value of that holder is diminished? What if, as has happened, one of those companies goes under for fraud? Sure we still own the card but how much of that card's value is due to the initials on the holder? And what if that card in that holder is altered or might be altered and it cannot go into another company's holder with a numerical grade?

Therein lies the problem.

A lot of faith and trust given the huge sums involved, yet based on incidents like this one, tragically misplaced.

And with not a lot of viable alternatives, especially if we fear the raw space is equally fraught with alterations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Cool. Let’s dig deep into my motives to make sure they are sufficiently pure.

First and most importantly, I would certainly enjoy it less. Every time I saw it, I would shake my head and glare at it menacingly, holding that I could somehow avoid the conundrum now facing me, and perhaps cleanse it of iniquity through the power of my disdain. And I would probably cast about, trying to figure out what I should do with it, and how to get rid of it, since it no longer brings me pleasure.

I’m not sure how I go about getting rid of it though. It seems like it’s not appropriate to sell it to someone else. PSA isn’t going to honor their guarantee. SGC has no guarantee (other than the false advertising one in the name).

Do I chuck it on the burn pile and burn it?

Obviously that’s easier to do if it’s not worth much. If it was worth 5 or 6 figures, now it’s a serious pickle.

You could sell it with disclosure. Nothing at all wrong with that. If no one cares, it won't matter.

[JollyElm]

PSA has just introduced a prototype of their newest 'Qualifier,' meant to quell concerns over altered cards being ignored by their graders.

Man, they really got balls!!!


1965Topps300SandyKoufaxnewNADSslab.jpg

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You could sell it with disclosure. Nothing at all wrong with that. If no one cares, it won't matter.

Seems like the only way to go then. Either that or perish from the extreme ignominy concomitant with possession of a known altered high grade card, and leave it to my heirs to sort it out.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by raulus

Therein lies the problem.

A lot of faith and trust given the huge sums involved, yet based on incidents like this one, tragically misplaced.

And with not a lot of viable alternatives, especially if we fear the raw space is equally fraught with alterations.

The faith and trust are 100% misplaced but not sure that results in being left with a worthless investment. If you believe the posts on blowout, SGC and PSA have been shown to holder bad cards with too high of a frequency. None of what has been brought to light has remotely hurt their businesses. It is anyone's guess if that might change in the future.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

LOL, I’m having a hard time getting 3’s and 4’s on seemingly very well preserved cards. How the hell are the grading companies still handing out 9’s on 53 Topps, without being suspicious of it?

THAT's the real IRONY

There giving them to somebody, though we're not in on the GAG

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

PSA has just introduced a prototype of their newest 'Qualifier,' meant to quell concerns over altered cards being ignored by their graders.

Man, they really got balls!!!


Attachment 589526

FFF Favor for friend
TBG Trimmed but graded
MAO Minor alterations only

[Bigdaddy]

The reason this is even an issue is because the card on the left is a $50 card and the one on the right is a $30,000 card. If the market is telling folks they can take a $50 investment and turn it into $30k in a week with minimal skills, tools or risk, why not play the game?

Is there any logic in this? It's a House of Cards, literally. And we know what happens to those. The prices may collapse, but no one is going to be held responsible.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Drew, there are several what I consider to be "big money" collectors here on Net54, and I believe ever one of them cares.

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I think more collectors cared when it appeared something might actually be done about it. And while it might not be accepted by the entire industry I think many just remain silent because how many times can you whine and complain before you annoy everyone? I think there are a lot of collectors who would support the hobby being cleaned up, if that were possible. It is undeniable that there is a segment of the hobby who truly does not care and we have seen posts by some of them here.

Collectors might, but the ship has sailed on cleaning up the hobby. Too much money and too many people itching for that high grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Val, they might say the care, but I believe the card and the grade supersedes that initial feeling.

There are thousands of us in the hobby. You are surely overgeneralizing. Many do not care, and many do.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Collectors might, but the ship has sailed on cleaning up the hobby. Too much money and too many people itching for that high grade.

And that is zactly why I qualified my statement with ..."if that were possible".

Don't fool yourself if ya think this a high grade issue. It is an issue that exists in any card that has enough value that it is worth being altered.

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, seriously do more than 3 people care? If you are buying a PSA 9 vintage card you know it is altered or you have your head buried so deep only your toes stick out.

This times x1000

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a world. Next we know, the card doctors will be openly advertising and competing to supply custom altered cards to meet registry needs. They can provide testimonials and even show off their work using Blowout posts. They can tout their success rates getting alterations past PSA.

This is already happening. Kurt's Card Care does a live stream every Wed night on Instagram where he fixes various flaws on cards from vintage to modern to Pokemon. He's very open and honest about everything he does to improve/restore a card's condition.

I've also talked about the fact that I clean cards myself. If I had the time or the desire to be a content creator, I'd have zero qualms about sharing exactly what I do publicly. I don't consider what I do or what Kurt does to be altering cards. Neither of us trims, recolors, or rebuilds paper stock or anything like that. Everything I do is allowed by every grading company. I've never once had a card rejected because of something I did to it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Pat R

That's a reflection on what he's calling a rebuilt upper right corner.

Here's a different image from another sale of the same card.
Attachment 589494

This is not a rebuilt corner on this 53 Topps Jackie PSA 6. That's not missing paper in the scans. It's a bent corner and the light is reflecting off it in a way that makes it appear like it's missing paper. But it's not. This card has simply been soaked in water and dried flat. That bend would go away just by soaking it in water.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I was kind of wondering this myself. Apparently there must be a well known listing of doctors in some circles, and one needs only place an order for a custom piece. Only a matter of time before they start advertising in PSA’s magazine, and then maybe the major card graders and production companies will get into the business too by buying up all that sweet doctoring talent. Drop off and pick up offered at all major events. A single login and form to buy, doctor, grade, with fast return shipping. Guaranteed results. Vertical integration baby!!

Again, this is happening right now. PSA employees are even referring customers to Kurt's Card Care to fix flaws on cards before grading. Heritage Auctions has a guy who performs significant restoration/conservation work to raw cards prior to submitting to PSA/SGC. I know this first hand, for a fact. Dick Towle used to claim that he cleaned cards for every single major auction house. I believe him.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Those would probably make it through the assembly line now. There is probably one blacklight in the grading room that is broken out for special occasions.

Black lights are not the magical alteration discovery tool that many forum members seem to think they are.