Five questions about T212 Obak

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Hi all,

I've been collecting this truly awesome and visually beautiful set for a few months now and I'm absolutely hooked. I've read most or all of the articles in VCBC on this issue, but I still have a few questions that some of you more seasoned T212 collectors may be able to shed some light on.

1. How rare are the 150 subjects backs?

2. How rare are they compared to other contemporary tobacco issues?

2. Are they as difficult as 1909's or scarcer? I've seen several 1909's over the last year, but not nearly as many 150's.

3. Besides such popular players such as Weaver, Gandil, Peckinpaugh, Bodie and Million, are there any other players in the three Obak sets that are considered particularly scarce or difficult?

4. *Here's a tough one: I have seen and own several Obak cards with numbers stamped in purple ink on the reverse. I have also seen some with a diamond shape punch hole. Were the stamps or punches done because the cards were redeemed in place of coupons, or were the stamps and punches done by collectors?

5. Are there any rarities, variations, etc. from the T212 sets that the SCD catalog has not yet acknowledged?

I have also made an observation over the last few months, that may or may not mean anything. I've noticed that PCL Obaks seem to be easier to find then NWL's. Are NWL's harder to find? I've also noticed that the NWL's seem to be tougher to find in good condition compared to the PCL's. Any thoughts or opinions to this post would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Adam

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

During my very brief time collecting obaks, I ran into a few of the "Gilliam Squires" purple back stamp, and also occasional purple numbers. We had a thread on this about two years ago and most collectors said that "Gilliam Squires" was something an owner with a large collection stamped on his cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

While I don't collect Obaks in particular I do know that many of them have factory purple stamps on the back....and were put on at the tobacco factory. Also, I don't believe that Ten Million is all that rare....however, his name has made him a little bit of a cult status....others on the board know gobs more than I do on this subject....a couple other tidbits....'09's are definitely more rare than the other 2 years and horizontals are scarce too.....happy hunting...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff O

Interesting questions.... here are my opinions on some of the issues raised.

I think that 150 series cards are slightly easier to find than 1909 cards... but not a whole lot. The nice thing about 150s is that you can sometimes get them for a bargain, as the seller isn't always aware of the variation. Also, some 150s have slightly different cropping than their 175 series counterparts, so they're a little different.

With regards to scarce cards... it's difficult to say. I believe that all 1909s are equally tough. This is based on the fact that all three of the uncut sheets that I know of consist of exactly 76 cards - one of each player. This seems to indicate that there are no double or single prints, and that each is printed in equal quantities. As for the 1910s, two partial sheets appeared in Mastro auctions (6/24/99 and 11/16/00) and appear to indicate that there may be some double prints... but it's hard to tell. I personally have always found the Portland players particularly tough, but it could just be me. As for the 1911s, I am unaware of any sheets or scarcitites.

As for scarcity, I refer back to the American Card Catalog of the 1950s-1960s. During that era, value was generally based on scarcity of the issue. In the 1960 guide Obaks were priced at $0.30 each... while T206s were $0.10 and most other tobacco issues were $0.20 to $0.30. I feel these numbers have some weight, with Obaks being considerably tougher than the more common issues like T205 and T206. Mind you, the 1960 guide also prices T217 Monos at $0.35... and I will gladly pay a slight premium over the price of an Obak for one of these!

Hope this helps...

Jeff

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Cowan

Indeed a great question. I have some observations that I will offer up for discussion.

1909's are indeed difficult to find. 1910's seem to be the most common and the 1911's can be a challenge. Although on occasion I have run across a number of 1911's in a single lot.

150 Subjects backs are much less common than the 175 subjects backs. Like Jeff mentions you can find them on occasion if the seller is not aware there is a difference in the backs.

Of the 1910 series some backs are tougher to find than others. I always seem to find "Always a Pleasure" and "No Paste" used. No matter what one of those backs are on any 1910 Obak I buy =)

With regards to the cards being punched. I am guessing and it is just a guess that the cards were indeed turned in for something to the John Bollman Co. and punched. Then more than likely just given away as they had no value to anyone after they had been turned in for a premium. I have seen Newspaper ads as late as 1913 for Obak coupons to be turned in for prizes. I have never seen a ad or promotion asking people to turn in the cards.

Glad you are enjoying the set. Indeed Obaks are fun and challenging. Many members here are very knowledgable on the topic and any questions you have will more than likely be answered.

Lurking mode back on.


Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: brian p

Having done my fair share of Obak-ing, I would have to agree with all of what Jeff O. has to say about them. I would also like to add that, although I do not know the purpose of the small purple number stamps on the backs of Obaks, they are certainly widespread. I have not encountered many of the diamond shape punch ones, though. I think some collector may have just gotten nutty with a punch.

I would also like to add that the best checklist for this set is in Volume 3 of the Vintage and Classic Baseball Collectors magazine (VCBC). There is a nice article by Mark MaCrae on the three sets, and the checklist is separated within year by team, also has a separate listing of the 1910 Series of 150 cards. This is where you will find a detailed listing of all the variations with the 150 series--for example J. Smith with white lettering, J.Smith with blue lettering, etc--which are not described or basically ignored in the Sports Collectors Digest Standard Catalog. Also, it is nice that they are grouped by team. That is how a normal, non-anal collector would have collected them back then (sorry alphabetizers), but also gives someone interested in the PCL a feel for the make-up of the teams.

By the way, I have never found it difficult to come across the NWL cards--they always seemed to pop up when I was looking for PCL's.

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: brian p.

Forgot to mention that the VCBC article also has a listing of the 1910 back slogans, and that later VCBC articles by someone named Jeff Obermeyer chronicle the relative scarcity of these back slogans--which player's cards are found with what slogan(s).

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff O

Scott Cowan has republished (with my permission) some of my writings on Obaks which originally appeared in VCBC on his web site. To access the Obak section, follow this link:

http://www.vintagecardboard.com/ref_obk.html

He's got info there on the 1910 back slogan variations, checklists, and a list of players from the Obak set who appeared in the majors.

Jeff
http://www.seattlehockey.net

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and opinions. I'm sure this info will make collecting T212's even more fun.

[Archive]

Posted By: James Verrill

Adam,

Another great resource for you may be Scott Brockelman. I'm pretty sure he has an extensive background with T212's. Aside from that, he's a great person and a great person to know.

JV

[edjs]

So, I know I am reviving a 12 year old thread. I came across this when I was searching about the scarcity of T212 back slogans, and then I came across it when I was searching about 150 subjects. I felt that this thread posed some great questions that were not really answered that well, and here I am, 12 years later, trying to find some of the same answers, with little results. I see where the answers here say to read articles in the Vintage and Classic Baseball Collectors magazine, but if you don't have access to those articles, well, where do you find your answers? So, some of the topics in this thread that I am still trying to find a good solid answer for:

1- Is there a solid checklist of the back slogans that is broken down by scarcity order (I know in T206, back scarcity is somewhat subjective, but overall, there are some mostly agreed upon lists)? Also, does anyone have a checklist that shows what players are available with which slogans?

2- How rare are the 150 series cards, can someone express an equivalent in other issues cards (from what I have seen, I personally guess at them in the same order of scarcity as T206 Piedmont Fac. 42, but that is a guess, I have no data to confirm or deny). It also seems to me that 150 series have become harder to find than 1909s, maybe because people hold on to the 150s now more than they used to 12 years ago?

3- I see a mention to a variation in this thread (J. Smith with white lettering, J.Smith with blue lettering), but I have no idea what the variation looks like. I have seen examples of the J. Smith 150 with Los Angeles in blue lettering, and have never seen it in white lettering. Can anyone expound on this variation? Also, I know there are other variations, does anyone have examples they could post showing variations? I have read about many of them, but there are never scans in the examples that I find (perhaps I am really bad at finding stuff). Also, if you can talk about the variations, which one would be the "chase"?

4- Roughly how many full sheets are known to exist, and are there full sheets from 1909, 1910 150 subjects, 175 subjects, and 1911? In other words, has a full sheet been found to cover all the players through all three years?

5- How much has been discovered about this set since this thread was started 12 years ago? Though my first pre-war card was a 1909 T212 LaLonge, I really haven't put much thought or effort into this set, picking up a cool piece here and there when it seemed like a good deal. Recently I bought a 1911 Kid Mohler, and this card is so nice, it has really made me start looking at Obak again.

I asked Leon if it was okay before I kicked this old thread back up, and he said it was okay. It seemed like a while since we had a good ol' fashioned Obak discussion. I'm getting psyched about PCL cards again, any suggestions for another PCL series needs talking about? Thanks for any input, and again, I am not any type of expert in these subjects, so if any of my guesses are dead wrong, feel free to say so, they are only guesses after all.

[wonkaticket]

Obaks are great cards!



1. Not that I'm aware of, I know some players are only found with say the tougher backs like "Just So" players like Kusel etc.



2. 150's are very tough I spent a lot of time and had to even buy a fellow collector out of his progress to finish the full 150 set. I would say they are equal to the 1909's if not a bit tougher in my experience.

3. Not sure....

4. I know of one of each set along with handful uncut panels and strips.

5. Not much new, but quite a bit is known already. I will say T212 hasn't been torn apart and broken down to the degrees of say T206. It could be done but to date I' haven't seen any real new info or thoughts on T212.

Here are my 4 Obak sets.

1909 Obak Set.
http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/colle...s/1909t212obak

1910 Obak "150" Set
http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/colle...bak150subjects

1910 Obak "175" Set
http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/colle...1910obak175set

1911 Obak Set
http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/colle...ksets/1911obak

Glad to see an Obak thread...how could you go wrong talking about this great set.



Cheers,

John

[edjs]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Obaks are great cards!


1. Not that I'm aware of, I know some players are only found with say the tougher backs like "Just So" players like Kusel etc.


2. 150's are very tough I spent a lot of time and had to even buy a fellow collector out of his progress to finish the full 150 set. I would say they are equal to the 1909's if not a bit tougher in my experience.

3. Not sure....

4. I know of one of each set along with handful uncut panels and strips.

5. Not much new, but quite a bit is known already. I will say T212 hasn't been torn apart and broken down to the degrees of say T206. It could be done but to date I' haven't seen any real new info or thoughts on T212.

Here are my 4 Obak sets.

Glad to see an Obak thread...how could you go wrong talking about this great set.


Cheers,

John

John,

Thanks for the feedback. Perusing your sites, I wonder if I bought your old Mohler card, as it is from the Pollard Collection.

[wonkaticket]

Ed, you did Pollard had a few cards which weren't as nice as mine so I did sell a handful of the cards from the original collection. Pollard was such a hobby pioneer in terms of PCL/Minor league cards I felt the need to tip the hat to him with the pedigree on the slabs. Being an old school collector he would most likely be laughing at the name on the slab and ask me why I removed the cards from his sheets.

In fact Ed here is your Mohler card as it came from the original collection from the old Mylar sheets. Also you will see it in the pile below as they were removed and sent off for grading.




Cheers,

John

[trdcrdkid]

Mmmmm, I love me some Obaks. I'm green with envy at Wonkaticket's collection. I don't have nearly as many (maybe 70 different, plus six duplicates?), but they're all still raw.

[wonkaticket]

Man that binder looks nice...I miss those days! Good stuff.

[Leon]

here are a few more....

[Orioles1954]

T212-3 full uncut sheet.

[edjs]

Wow, you guys have some très cool cards there.

Orioles, are all the subjects (175) represented on the one sheet? That is amazing!

Leon, those are some great cards. Are they all going to be in the Heritage auction? I may have to add those to my tracking

John, thank you so much. Do you mind if I save a copy of those photos to show the Mohler history? Man, Mr. Pollard had some amazing cards. Do you remember why the Mohler came back graded "A"? It is such a nice card, and I really can't tell with it slabbed, but it doesn't really show any trimming, but I guess that is probably it.

Okay, there is the 1911 sheet, anyone with the 1909, 1910 (150), or 1910 (175). Fascinating to see. How about variations? I have read there a some between the 150 and 175 series. In post #4, Jeff O talks about three uncut sheet from the 1909 set, and that there was only one subject per sheet, so that would make the 1909 cards come out in equal number (therefore equal in scarcity). This 1911 sheet clearly shows that some cards where multi-printed on the same sheet. I would guess the same would be in the 1910 (175) sheets, since they are both 175 subjects. I would love to see how the 150 subjects where printed. This is some great stuff! Keep it coming!

[Orioles1954]

Hi Ed,

No, there are several double and a couple of triple-printed cards on the sheet. Definitely one-of-a-kind and was found by our consignor in an abandoned print shop in San Francisco.

James

[rjackson44]

I own a few love them for my type collection

[trdcrdkid]

Wow, the pattern in the uncut sheet that Orioles posted is really interesting. The nine leftmost columns consist of four different rows of nine card repeated twice each, A-A-B-B-C-C-D-D (going from top to bottom, and ignoring the bottom horizontal row). The nine rightmost columns also consist of four different rows of nine cards each, but in an A-B-C-A-B-C-D-D pattern (top to bottom). The middle three columns consist of four different rows of three, repeated in an A-B-A-B-C-C-D-D pattern (top to bottom). So it looks like each card in that main 21x8 part of the sheet (168 cards) is repeated twice, meaning there are 84 different cards in that section. The bottom horizontal row consists of 11 cards, four of them repeated twice, and three (the ones in the lower left corner) appearing only once. Unless I'm overlooking something, the four cards appearing twice in the bottom horizontal row don't appear in the top part of the sheet, so that there are 88 cards that appear twice on the sheet. The three cards on the left end of the bottom row each also appears in the main part of the sheet, so they're the only three triple-printed cards. One of them is Buck Weaver (right-handed batting stance, green background), the most valuable card in the set.

[edjs]

David,

That is what I counted, too. The total number is 88 different subjects, which would mean you would need two sheets to make the 175 subjects in the 1911 (88 times 2 is 176, so curious that is works out that way). That sheet is really confusing as to why they would lay it out like that, but way cool to see. A big thanks to James for posting it. And it was FOUND in an abandoned print shop. Oh, what a find!