Collector or Investor (or both) - Which are you?

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Posted By: Trae R.

Just a topic I have been pondering lately. Please post your stance on the subject. While I am new to pre-war I would consider myself a "both" sort of hobbyist. Because I am realizing now (what most of you probably realized long ago) that while we put a lot of our money into cards we are reaping the mental benefit (joy, excitement, etc.) of having a cool piece of history, and at the same time purchasing a seemingly sound investment should we ever need to resell the items. Assuming most of the dealers who frequent this board are also collectors - I pose the question to you too.

I think that was a run-on sentence, but I am pretty sure you all understand what I am trying to say/ask.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I could be considered both,as i only collect now but hope to use the cards as a retirement fund and only sell what i have to.Of course some cards wont ever get sold but if i live long enough then all those cards i got from the 80s might be able to buy me food for the week if i sell them in clips of 500 [insert smiley face here]

I dont sell anything now unless i specifically bought it to sell,say if it were a lot of 5 cards and i needed 3 id sell the other 2.If i get something cheap that i dont normally collect i usually just keep it

As far as anyone in my family knows,except my dad,i buy cards and sell them for profits when i can

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Posted By: Mike

My idea from the beginning was to form a collection in which I could pass on through my family.(assuming my children give a damn about baseball).
When I started collecting Pre War cards, I was in college and had a very limited amount of $ to work with. So, I had to be creative and manipulate my pot the best I could. I think, as an art student, we were actually penalized points to our grade if we made too much money. They wanted to prepare us, like any good school, for the realities of our future. In my case: "starving artist". Anyhow, I had very little money to work with but somehow ended up with a Yellow background Goudey Ruth, a PSA 4 Red Backgrd Cobb, a PSA 3 Cy Young portrait, and eventually a PSA 4 A&Ginters Anson and an E90-2 Wagner. In fact, I still have all the cards I listed.(switch the Ruth to #144). I did have a comic collection that I systematically sold on e-bay to aid my new interest in pre war cards(but one that a middle school kid accumulated on an even more limited budget). After college I stored my collection at my dads and ventured off to make a life for myself in DC, where I am now. Now, armed with a half way decent income I am back. Wow, I should take this time to apologize for the length of my entree. Bottom line, I'm a collector and hope to pass down a decent collection to my children in which I can point out HOFers and tell their stories. But, it is nice to watch my cards appreciate.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I am a collector first, but I sell off items that I dont want to fund cards that I do want. For example, I used to collect as a kid - 50's through early 90's then stopped for nearly ten-twelve years (still liked the cards, just didnt buy anything). I got back into collecting about 2 years ago and went head first into vintage cards about a year ago. Ive been selling some of my original cards to offset the new vintage cards.

I also hope to keep my cards to pass down to my kids - however, Ive got two daughters both under age 3 (meaning I have no idea if they will even like sports let alone baseball) and I am unlikely to have any more (ie no sons) - so I may be waiting for the grandkids.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I personally buy them because the love the cards and the history of the game. They have turned out to be a good investment that helps to fund my purchases of almost complete T202 (missing one card) and a T206 set (minus 8 cards and the big 5). In the 4 years I have been on ebay the vintage market has really blossomed. i buy for both reasons profit and to collect.

Lee

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am pretty much a pure collector at this point since I workingon a player set and not concerned with resale value of my cards. If I'm looking to make a few bucks, I will ventuer into areas that I think are ready to take off. I've had a pretty good track record over the years of getting in on th hot new collectible before it booms. I made a nice killing on CCGs (collectible card games for those that don't know), action figures and most recently, my collection of Indian Chief and Wild West cards. I scoffed at when I first showed up here and talked about my Indian cards. Now, a number of board members collect these cards, which I am sure ahs helped me make a nice profit on the cards I bought But I am sure they also helped price me out of the market, lol. And no, I won't tell you what I am chasing now. You'll find out when I want to start selling them

In the 80s when I heavily involved inthe hobby, I used to help people build collections. The single most important piece of advice I gave to them was to buy the things that they related to and enjoyed because when the market bottoms out, you want to own something that will give you good memories, even if you lost some money on it.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Unless you make a conscious decision going in with a "buy low/sell high" attitude, you're a collector, period.

While I admit that it is good for my conscience that all the money I am pouring into my avocation seems to indicate that it'll be worth something should I decide to sell the cards for some reason, I do not ever envision selling them and hope that day never comes. I plan on having Larry Corcoran and Orator Shaffer and all their buddies to keep me company in my golden years.

Heck, I hope to outlive a bunch of people on the board so I can buy the things from their heirs that I'd always wanted because I sure am having a hard time getting them now!

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Posted By: leon

"f" it......I'm a dealer........there, now I said it and can accept the fact that Brian D. calls me one...(actually I really only buy and sell so I can have enough moolah to buy for my personal collection but that's not the story I'm telling) ..later

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I collect baseball cards. If the cards do not decrease in value, then the hobby is justifiable to my wife as a viable form of savings. However, if they do go down in value, I can afford more of them.

Which do I want? Like everyone else, I want them to cheapen while I am buying and then go up drastically right before I sell (but I can not imagine parting with these cards which continue to be quite difficult to assemble).

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

COLLECTOR, COLLECTOR, COLLECTOR

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Posted By: JimB

This is a tough one and like so many questions, I don't think there is a black and white answer for myself. Certainly, it is the love of the cards, the history, and the art of the cards that brought me and keeps me in the hobby. And I am probably guided more by my heart than head often times with purchases. But I think I would be lying to myself if I did not admit that there is a lot of money involved here and I am certainly conscious when buying expensive cards about the investment type prospects of the card. Although I have bought a handful of cards for immediate resale when I thought there was a particularly good deal, 99.9% of the time I am buying for my collection which I have no plans to sell. There are times when I sell duplicates or I sell one thing to get the funds to buy something else I am more interested in having in my collection, but those are rarely investment type decisions.
JimB

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I used to be a pure collector, of five sports plus the odd nonsports cards. Then the Hobby happened. Now, of necessity, I limit myself to baseball and boxing (with the odd basketball from the 1970's) and I carefully consider the financial aspects of my card purchases because they have become so expensive. Conseqently, I look to buy cards with upside potentials or lots I can split up so that I can finance the collection end of things on the profits. I only wish I gave enough of a damn to cultivate a stock-picking skill to the degree I seem to pick up on good card investments, but life is too short to be bored.

I will say that I now seem to enjoy the cheapies the most. Picking up a bunch of $10 strip cards and Exhibits is as much fun as anything else seems to be. With a few exceptions, I am also giving up on high grade cards in many issues where I used to be very finicky, again because 10 cards for $100 is way more enjoyable for me than 2 cards for $50 each. I've systematically traded off my "8" and better items for replacements in 6 and 7 grades, plus lots more cards.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

For getting Leon to admit he is a dealer - now he can sell me the rest of those Croft's Cocoas!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Back when they were naming schools after him, I "invested" in several hundred Steve Garvey cards. After his well publicized troubles, I stopped "investing" - in anybody.

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Posted By: Julie

...so I'm a dealer insofar as I always think--will i be able to sell this someday? Someday...

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Posted By: BCD

That's why he purchased a Tango Brand egg card from me about five years ago. He is PURELY a type card collector!

How do I put the Leon type collector smiley face here?

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Anonymous

Collector.

My few attempts at investing where collosal busts, because at one time I was an idiot. I got caught up in the rookie card hype of the late 80's and early 90's and traded the "4 Horsemen" and "Don Hutson" Topps All American cards from 1955 for a bunch of Eric Davis 85 Topps, Cory Snyder rookies, and Todd Worrell rookies around 1990.

How stupid was that?

Now I just collect whatever I like. Cardinals stuff, Brock and Gibson, lately I've been buying pre WW2 stuff on Ebay. If it's a player I remember from when I was a kid, and I like the card, I'll buy it.

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Posted By: pete

like many of you I am a collector of almost 30 years. I've always been a collector first...although as of recently I've considered buying cards for an investment. I feel as if I'm knowledgable enough to invest wisely in bb cards vs stocks or mutual funds. Seeing the unbelievable rising values of some scarcities and caramel cards in general leads me to want to INVEST!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Even if you consider yourself a pure collector, if your collection happens to increase in value along the way, doesn't that make you a collector/investor without even trying? And who objects to their collection increasing in value. Seems like a positive thing to me. To put it another way, if you considered yourself a pure collector and the value of your collection plummeted, would you be inclined to just throw in the towel?

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I think Barry is right that like it or not collectors are in some sense investors unless that requires intent to invest.... Personally I realized once my cards started being worth (and started to cost) a meaningful amount of money that I was clearly an investor even if I wasn't necessarily always a particularly rational investor in that I buy/sell/trade cards often without regard for what I think that they are (or will be) worth....

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Posted By: Bob

Definately a collector, reliving the joys of my childhood. I invest in real estate (my house), the market (401k, various funds) and even our educational system (3 kids and my wife headed for college). Cards to me ideally would be an escape from concerns about money. Hence I collect judiciously in the P-VG range.

What my cards are worth bring me no joy, it's the cards themselves that bring me joy. If I need to sell cards to finance my retirement, I've done something wrong.

Wouldn't bother me a bit if the prices of BB Cards plumeted, it might allow me to upgrade my Ruths/Cobbs/Gehrigs etc. Once everyone's through college I may upgrade anyway

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Posted By: Trae R.

It's really neat to see how everyone views such a topic - I figured it would probably stir up some passion about the subject! Keep it going!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm a renter. I enjoy handling stuff, looking at it in person. Some stuff I keep for a long while, some stuff I frame and hang from my wall, other stuff I keep moving. For something I buy to resell I might say, "I wouldn't buy it for myself, but I can see why people like these." For things I'm particularly fond of on a personal basis, that the next owner appreceates it as much or more than I do can be more important than the amount of money offered. For a few, the price is set where only a person who really appreceates it would pay that amount. I have items where I know what the sale price is but have never offered them for sale or even said aloud what is the price as I'm aware no one would pay that amount ... I've found that the best way to discover how much you like something is by selling it for a good price and wishing you hadn't.

'Collector,' 'investor,''dealer,' 'none of the above', I don't know what is my offical title and job description. My dad once called the office of the president of a billion dollar company, and the president picked up the phone.
My dad said, "Why are you answering the phone? I thought you would have a secretary."
The president replied, "I do, but she has too much important stuff to do to be answering the phone."

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Posted By: Scott

I'm also a "renter" when it comes to baseball cards.
When it comes to track & field cards, photos, uniforms and equipment I'm a "collector".

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Posted By: Bily

OK, since I am new to this board I should use this topic to talk about myself a little (lol). I am 21 and just graduated from Nevada-Reno (sweet 16 team last year) in August, and while surveying my future I decided to take a calculated gamble on T201 and T206's. I have no real money to speak of, just credit cards. My question is this, is it smart to buy these cards when you can get a deal (at or below SMR) and throw them on the plastic? Right now I have very good intro offers of 0% interest which will expire soon and go up to 10% there after. It seems like a good idea to me, but I can tell it frustrates my parents. I figure if you want the cards (which I do badly) the time to get the rare vintages is now (as leon mentioned earlier, ebay, PSA registry, etc all have increased demand). I also remember in Ecology class my prof said in 2050 there will be 15-18 billion people on the planet, and it's convinced me to go for it right now.

Should I stay the course, or go conservative for a while and risk people like S.R. Owen (bison711 on ebay)literally buying up and cornering the market on T201'S? I can just see that happening, and kicking myself for life.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Don't buy baseball cards on credit cards when you have no money to back it up. Go conservatively until you have the discretionary funds (amount you can afford to lose) to spend.

Have you ever sold a baseball card? Have you sold 100? Why do you use SMR as an investment price? Is the SMR pricing accurate? Have you sold graded cards and how did their prices compare to SMR? Do you know that many baseball card prices have and will go down? Why do you predict T206 prices will go up? If the world popoulation is going to be 15-18 billion in 2050, why do you beleive those $5 billion in India and $2 billion in Bangladesh are going to driving up the prices on T206 Ty Cobbs?

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Posted By: leon

Do exactly as David (Cycleback) just said. You are probably playing with fire. It is obvious that you mean well but you are taking a major gamble given the statements you made. Don't buy on credit cards ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND AREN'T AN EXPERT. There is one board member, who's a friend of mine, that does it and does ok but he has a lot of experience. Start off with about $50-$100 of your own money and buy and sell a few cheap things first.....regards

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Posted By: Julie

I'm suppoosed to leave them sit there and fritter them away on groceries and bart tickets?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Thinking about it a bit more, my opinion is even stronger against the poster investing money he doesn't have with credit cards. Investing in anything with borrowed money where you owe 10 percent interest is bad, bad news from the start-- and shows lack of undertanding of good investing and personal finances. Spend discretionary funds only and learn about the market with money that is yours and that you can afford to lose and isn't rent or food money or money you don't have.

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Posted By: Billy

Your advice is greatly appreciated. The high PSA SGC grade T201'S have generally doubled in price since I started buying them this summer. I have made good money on those that I have sold, however I have bought more than I have sold and am still in debt. I have absolutely no bills or college debt, so that is how I justified it to myself (since many of my peers can have $50,000 in college debt alone). I will probably make sure to be very cautious about adding more debt though. Another solution is to balance transfer to new cards with 0%, and keep doing that, but it probably isnt worth it. Thanks, Billy

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Posted By: Billy

David,

Bangladesh wasn't a country I was counting on to support my fund. Maybe China or Latin America?

I still see your point though. Sometimes when you like the cards so much, reality can get blurred and you make decisions on what you hope will happen and maybe not what will happen (like sports gambling maybe). Don't worry about me starving though, I have a good home with the p's here in Las Vegas. I am just now getting job offers after graduating in august (getting a job is ALOT harder than it sounds) so I should be able to pay my debt off in 6-12 months. However I see that it makes more sense to just wait until then before I buy, the cards will still exist.

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Posted By: leon

First of all I spelled your name with only 1 "l" earlier because that's how you spelled it in the previous post. Looked funny....but hey, with a name like mine who knows? In my brief collecting career I have made the best decisions when I try to take the emotion out of them. I still find it difficult (as almost every other board member will have the same issue) when it's for my personal collection. Recently I paid about $400 more for a card on ebay than the same exact type brought just a few weeks later. Had I been patient I would possibly have been better off (had I bid on the later one first it's hard to say for sure). Like most pro's say, you will probably see another of whatever your heart is set on. There are few examples that you will "never" see again.....take care and whatever you do ...have fun with the hobby. 99% of the people I have met are great folks.....it's been a lot of fun so far.

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Posted By: Billy

Thanks Leon!!!

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Posted By: jay behrens

I haven't had a credit card, or even a loan in almost 15 years. When you live on cash only, you know exactly where you stand financially. I could have a lot of really cool, brand new toys, like that 42" DLP TV I want, but I don't really need it. I just set aside some money that draws interest instead of paying interest to come credit company.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

What can be said about a quality T206 Ty Cobb or Walter Johnson bought at a good price with discretionary funds, is that it is a relatively stable product. I'm unable to predict what if any return it will bring over five or ten years, but the card is nothing like a Crispy Creme stock. Even if the price drops, the Cobb or Johnson will retain financial value for years to come. So, while it wouldn't be my investment of choice, I don't object to a collector putting some hard earned dollars into a nice Ty Cobb or two.

My practical investment advice is that it's not just what you buy, it's what you pay. A trading card or diamond ring or painting can double in book value, but it's still a lousy investment if you bought the damn thing at retail.