Not much difference, in terms of the impact but in one case the house is telling you that is what is happening and in the other it lacks the disclosure. In my opinion there is a lot of both instances going on in these auctions. Know what you want to pay and be willing to walk away empty handed.

Your own words -- "We discussed at length whether we start the auction at my reserve or whether we run a process, etc."

The "process" here I would characterize as market manipulation. None of this would be the case if you started at your reserve as you had the option to do. Ken advised you correctly. The process, which, yes, many AHs employ, is intended to induce third-party bids that were made only because of the belief the prior bid was a "real" (i.e,, not AH bid). So, you stood a better chance of realizing your minimum sell price by this method than by simply starting at your reserve.

I take you at your word that you did not use Goldin because they employ such a bidding system. As noted, many other AHs employ the same system. The question is the next time you look to sell it, assuming you sell it at auction, will you be willing to either sell with an AH that does not bid on the behalf of the consignor, or in the alternative start the bidding at your reserve price?

Not much experience myself with big AH’s but im lil bit shocked at this and it doesn’t sit right with me .

As for the auction results that too has me a bit shocked! When was the last time a T206 Wagner did not sell ? What happened here seems like a big “L”


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It would also be cool to know how much it costs to put a reserve on a card like that. It sure couldn't have been free to run the auction and not sell it.

A card like that brings eyes to an auction even if it doesn't sell. Most auction houses would pay to have it in their auction.

Enough said.

100%

Great question Ben. In this case, Goldin charged me nothing to put a reserve, which is another reason I went with them. As mentioned, there was no way I was letting this go unless I got my number, so I would not consign without a reserve. This is the first time I ever put a reserve on a consignment, so I do not have a ton of experience on the matter. It is my understanding that some AHs charge the consignor the BP on the reserve amount if the card is not sold, some AHs charge a fee, some AHs do not allow reserves, and some allow them without a charge; I expect its all part of each consignment negotiation.

Corey, I will 100% consign to Goldin again, but I expect this is the last and only card I put a reserve on. I will also bid with Goldin -- I know what I am willing to pay and I will bid to that point. That said, I too do not like when the AH can place house bids. I think that sucks. Many/most AHs have the right to do this and I expect many do.

For the Mona Lisa (Honus) the auction houses should pay the consigner virtually ALL of the buyer’s fee (if not more!!!!). It’s the best advertising an auction house can get.

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Ryan, do you anticipate any traction for a potential private sale because of this? I would think once the market knows a Wagner is available that it would generate some private discussion. Is there a lock out period where you would have to compensate Goldin if sold privately?
You don’t have to answer but am curious how that would go.

The good news is you get to enjoy your Wagner a bit longer.
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Correct. This environment must definitely affected the price.

Has there ever been such a high profile card up for "auction" at the major houses (where the reality was much closer to an overpriced BIN situation, so it didn't come close to selling?)

Hope this never becomes more of a norm. Not a good look for the industry.

REA Baltimore News Ruth last year

I thought that sold - could be wrong

No lock out period and I dont know who any of the bidders were. The card is always for sale, if I get my number. However, considering Goldin marketed the heck out of it and it did not get my number, I doubt someone will now pay privately what it didn't sell for publicly. As an aside, my number was, I thought, strong but reasonable. Indeed, all but one of the predictions earlier in this thread are above (or around) my contract reserve.

I appreciate you openness in answering questions about this auction.

It did. I don't know what Baltimore News Ruth he's referring to.

My mistake. I was thinking about the Dunn from the same set that didn’t sell.

Manipulation is a really loaded concept. It implies some sort of nefarious act. i don't think that's right. Goldin did nothing wrong. With respect to reserves, Goldin's rules are crystal clear on the point:

"All lots have a minimum bid designated in the catalog and the on-line listing. Certain lots may also have a reserve, which is the confidential price below which the lot will not be sold. The reserve may be greater than the minimum bid. At 10 p.m. eastern time on the day before the auction is set to close, a lot which has an unmet reserve will state “reserve not met’ in the individual lot page online. If the bidding does not meet the reserve at the close of the auction, the lot will be designated as “a pass, reserve not met".

If reserves are legal and the AH follows the law, it is fair, just part of the business. Nothing to see here, folks.

Also, not everything has to be an outright sale to be useful. We've learned that there is a ceiling on what a Wagner will bring in rough condition.

Curious what others think about the impact the reserve might have had on bidding activity for this piece.

My experience has been that a reserve will tend to have a chilling effect on the end of the auction. Once bidders see a reserve is in place, they have a tendency to give up, probably assuming that the reserve will not be met, so there’s no point in continuing to bid.

I’ve seen similar situations where the exact same card at the exact same auction house failed to meet the reserve at $200k, and then a month later sold for $400k with no reserve, simply because the action on the last day was so fast and furious with no reserve, and died with the reserve in place. And no, there wasn’t any big economic change in the interim, where we went from being fearful to being greedy within that window. So the economy can’t be the answer. And the 1-month interlude also wasn’t during the COVID frenzy where everything doubled every month.

All of which is a long way of wondering whether Ryan might have gotten his desired price without the reserve. Naturally, we’ll never know for sure. But it’s an interesting thought exercise, as well as a fascinating aspect of how bidders approach auctions.

Here's a complex, detailed analysis of your well-stated opinion there:

I totally agree! :cool:

I would add that auction format works well because the bidders feel like they are the ones who are determining price. When there is a reserve, I think psychologically, they feel there is no deal to be had and they are not the ones determining the price paid.

I understand why it was used or is used but I think it tends to limit what people will otherwise end up bidding, almost making certain the item does not sell. May as well be a store listing on eBay that sits for eternity.

No one was saying that the use of a reserve is market manipulation or something nefarious. It's clear that the discontent is mostly about the shill bidding that might be correlated to it.

And no, we haven't learned what the ceiling on that Wagner might be (given the points that Raulus and Lorewalker just brought up)

Bingo. I think we are foolish to assume this card would always go up.