PWCC Black Swamp crossover

[phikappapsi]

Well, given the goings-on, this one seems incredibly suspect.

You'd think with the scandal, he'd be the last guy cracking a BSF card and resubmitting for a better grade.

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/143369804627

[Leon]

It's a great looking card. Maybe the original holder got scratched or otherwise defaced? Hard to imagine cracking that one.

[ullmandds]

in my opinion these would be some of the easier cards to trim/alter...based on the skill of the doctors we've seen so far...and in light of how pristine most were when discovered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They sold the same card in July.

Apparently.

https://www.psacard.com/auctionprice...ction/2782195/

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They sold the same card in July.

https://www.psacard.com/auctionprice...ction/2782195/

you mean "sold" or did they actually sell it?

[frankbmd]

Once a card enters the vault, transparency of subsequent transactions vanishes like those stock certificates we used keep for our cherished assets. I wonder if there is an operating room in the vault. “Trust me, I’m a card doctor.”

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Once a card enters the vault, transparency of subsequent transactions vanishes like those stock certificates we used keep for our cherished assets. I wonder if there is an operating room in the vault. “Trust me, I’m a card doctor.”

Is the Vault is a front for fake bids???....keep pumping back in the vault unless a sucker comes in hot last minute

Terrible

[barrysloate]

What's the over/under on that 30K price? I say it sells for less.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

What's the over/under on that 30K price? I say it sells for less.

sells...or "sells" barry????

[phikappapsi]

I just don't see how any major hobby collector would be unaware of the scandal, and then assuming they're aware, how they'd confidently buy a PWCC crossover cracked out of the BSF? At least in the original BSF slab you can trust PWCC didn't have card doctors with access to it.

Now that it's seen open air and been in their hands, this one in my view loses all credibility

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sells...or "sells" barry????

Haven't a clue.

[toledo_mudhen]

WOW - an amazing card

absolutely correct on the question of "why on earth would anyone have that reholdered"

(I bid the $5000 on it - just cuz it was fun to do)

[Rhotchkiss]

New flip, yes. But how do you know it’s a BSF cross over?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

New flip, yes. But how do you know it’s a BSF cross over?

Because a card of that quality did not exist before the find.

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

in my opinion these would be some of the easier cards to trim/alter...based on the skill of the doctors we've seen so far...and in light of how pristine most were when discovered.

The skill? of the Doctors?

You mean to say the ease with which a piece of cardboard can be fixed up.

What a joke these "goings-on" are nutin is going to befall PWC or anyone else I am sick to my big belly over it. Meanwhile consumption is on the rise!

[Rhotchkiss]

I hear ya Pete. And it’s in a new flip, and certainly a card of this “caliber” would not be new to the market, without fanfare. But maybe it’s a non-BSF that found its way into that holder . And re BSF, why would anyone take it out of a BSF flip? The BSF provenance proves the validity of its authenticity (and grade, I guess).

I would love to see physical evidence that this was once in a BSF flip. And I would love to see the grade on the flip. Do we have that info? Could be a huge black eye for all involved; at least (black) eye opening

[ullmandds]

It is absolutely 100% from the Black Swamp find...there is no question about it

[phikappapsi]

Already over 10k.

Probably time to go looking for a BSF 7, 7.5, with some common traits. Beyond my skills, but sure looks look a crack and resubmit with some preferential treatment.

[ullmandds]

It’s ironic how lately with all of the corruption in the hobby... provenance Is of even more importance these days ... yet there are still people out there who believe these cards are not real... and there are others like myself who don’t place as high a value on these cards because such a significant number of high-grade examples were found. So actually disassociating certain cards from the find could help their resale value...imo.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

New flip, yes. But how do you know it’s a BSF cross over?

I think just reholder - not crossover

[Rhotchkiss]

Nice, that’s the pic I was looking for. BUT, I don’t understand why someone would take it out of a BSF flip to put in another flip without the BSF designation and a new cert number. I am not a submitter, so I don’t know how it works, but a new cert# means someone cracked it out, submitted it raw, and paid substantial fees to have it graded anew, no?

It’s one thing to get rid of the BSF designation, which I don’t think makes much sense. But an entirely different thing to crack, submit, and pay for this card on a whole new review.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Nice, that’s the pic I was looking for. BUT, I don’t understand why someone would take it out of a BSF flip to put in another flip without the BSF designation and a new cert number. I am not a submitter, so I don’t know how it works, but a new cert# means someone cracked it out, submitted it raw, and paid substantial fees to have it graded anew, no?

It’s one thing to get rid of the BSF designation, which I don’t think makes much sense. But an entirely different thing to crack, submit, and pay for this card on a whole new review.

Someone could have simply sent it in for a reholder and requested a new cert # and to remove the BSF designation. I don't follow these closely but the few I've seen don't seem to command any special premium. Maybe the consignor thought it would do better without it.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Someone could have simply sent it in for a reholder and requested a new cert # and to remove the BSF designation. I don't follow these closely but the few I've seen don't seem to command any special premium. Maybe the consignor thought it would do better without it.

That could be. And Pete has suggested that perhaps the card is more valuable dissociated from the BSF -- After all, according to the PSA registry, there are 14 E98 Cobbs from the Black Swamp Find graded a PSA 9, and only 8 non-BSF E98 Red Cobb PSA 9's. But personally, I would much rather have the provenance on the flip. Interesting side note: There are 22, E98 Red Cobb (BSF and non-BSF) that are graded PSA 9, and only 10 Red Cobbs graded anything other than PSA 9 (and two are 10's); however, there are 37 designated as just "Ty Cobb" with no color association and red seems to be most the popular E98 Cobb variation. It seems like lower-grade E98 Red Cobbs should sell for a premium since they are the scarce ones!! All that said, it seems all high grade E98 red Cobbs are from BSF - whether the flip states such or not - so the PSA registry is misleading here to those who don’t know much about this issue - like me!! So I will defer to others with better knowledge.

Ok, I am done on this topic. Nice card and someone will be happy to own it

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Two problems.

1. White dots on the new one near his right arm and hip that aren't on the other make me think these aren't a match.

2. Everybody knows that the only E98's over, I think, PSA 5 are Black Swamp, so removing the BS provenance is pointless. Pretty sure the highest grade on any E98 before the find was "5"

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Two problems.

1. White dots on the new one near his right arm and hip that aren't on the other make me think these aren't a match.

+1. Other slight differences as well, at least in the scans.

EDITED TO ADD: Note the differences in registration where the red background meets the uniform under Ty's right armpit down to his waist.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That could be. And Pete has suggested that perhaps the card is more valuable dissociated from the BSF -- After all, according to the PSA registry, there are 14 E98 Cobbs from the Black Swamp Find graded a PSA 9, and only 8 non-BSF E98 Red Cobb PSA 9's. But personally, I would much rather have the provenance on the flip. Interesting side note: There are 22, E98 Red Cobb (BSF and non-BSF) that are graded PSA 9, and only 10 Red Cobbs graded anything other than PSA 9 (and two are 10's); however, there are 37 designated as just "Ty Cobb" with no color association and red seems to be most the popular E98 Cobb variation. It seems like lower-grade E98 Red Cobbs should sell for a premium since they are the scarce ones!! All that said, it seems all high grade E98 red Cobbs are from BSF - whether the flip states such or not - so the PSA registry is misleading here to those who don’t know much about this issue - like me!! So I will defer to others with better knowledge.

Ok, I am done on this topic. Nice card and someone will be happy to own it

Ryan- are you saying that before the Black Swamp Find, there were already eight E98 Cobbs graded PSA 9? That doesn't sound right. Mint condition candy cards are very scarce.

[Rhotchkiss]

Barry, I dont know much about E98's (was never into them and never owned a single one). All I am going off of is the PSA Registry -- picture attached below - which shows 8 E98 Red Cobbs, not designated BSF, graded PSA 9.

The statement has been made (twice) that one reason to cross a PSA 9 in a BSF flip to a PSA 9 in a non-BSF flip, with a new cert, is maybe because the owner felt the card would be more valuable disassociated from the BSF. My real point is that there are at least 7 other, PSA 9, Red, E98 Cobbs, in non-BSF flips. Thus, I dont see that as viable/realistic. Especially when, apparently, everyone that knows about these cards knows that almost all high grade E98 Cobbs are BSF. But I don't know.

I was joking that a lower grade E98 Red Cobb should be more valuable/have a premium, because, based on the pop report, they appear much more scarce than PSA 9s.

[pokerplyr80]

I'd say it's also likely that the cards without the designation were from the same find and simply submitted later. I doubt I would have introduced every card to the marketplace at the same time had I found these cards in an attic or basement. And the original submitter would have had good reason to not want the high grade population to jump too much at one time.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sells...or "sells" barry????

sells or "sells" or ""sells""

Chris Farley air quotes

Always proud to note that Chris Farley and I are from the same hometown

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

There were only 627 graded E98's before Black Swamp. Now over 1500. The PSA article states that the pop report doubled in size with black swamps. No Blue's in Black Swamp and the highest graded Blue is a 5.5 followed by 5 5's. Like I said I think everything 6 and over is a BSF card.

[swarmee]

If you remember, the family members who sold five years ago only had half the collection. The other relatives held them from sale so they didnt dilute the sale prices of the first group. It's covered in the Strange Inheritance show about BSF. Some were sent to SGC as well, and those may have been the ones resubmitted to PSA without the provenance for the flip.

[LincolnVT]

+1

Originally Posted by swarmee

If you remember, the family members who sold five years ago only had half the collection. The other relatives held them from sale so they didnt dilute the sale prices of the first group. It's covered in the Strange Inheritance show about BSF. Some were sent to SGC as well, and those may have been the ones resubmitted to PSA without the provenance for the flip.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If you remember, the family members who sold five years ago only had half the collection. The other relatives held them from sale so they didnt dilute the sale prices of the first group. It's covered in the Strange Inheritance show about BSF. Some were sent to SGC as well, and those may have been the ones resubmitted to PSA without the provenance for the flip.

Good point

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If you remember, the family members who sold five years ago only had half the collection. The other relatives held them from sale so they didnt dilute the sale prices of the first group. It's covered in the Strange Inheritance show about BSF. Some were sent to SGC as well, and those may have been the ones resubmitted to PSA without the provenance for the flip.

Good point

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Barry, I dont know much about E98's (was never into them and never owned a single one). All I am going off of is the PSA Registry -- picture attached below - which shows 8 E98 Red Cobbs, not designated BSF, graded PSA 9.

The statement has been made (twice) that one reason to cross a PSA 9 in a BSF flip to a PSA 9 in a non-BSF flip, with a new cert, is maybe because the owner felt the card would be more valuable disassociated from the BSF. My real point is that there are at least 7 other, PSA 9, Red, E98 Cobbs, in non-BSF flips. Thus, I dont see that as viable/realistic. Especially when, apparently, everyone that knows about these cards knows that almost all high grade E98 Cobbs are BSF. But I don't know.

I was joking that a lower grade E98 Red Cobb should be more valuable/have a premium, because, based on the pop report, they appear much more scarce than PSA 9s.

I really don't follow this stuff either Ryan, but it sounds like some collectors want the BSF designation removed. Perhaps that's a stigma against the card? I just don't know.

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks all. I learned a lot from this thread, sincerely. Sounds like the current PSA was one of those held back by the family of the BSF and graded and sold later. If I ever pick up a PSA E98 Cobb (and I will likely go SGC, and E94, or maybe E93, first), I would like it in a BSF flip for the provenance, but that’s just me.

Happy Labor Day.

[LincolnVT]

Yup, all of the high grade E98 cards are from the BSF. Pretty cool in my opinion. Not many HOF pre-war cards out there that are pack fresh and have such a great story behind them. I'd love another one.

[lowpopper]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

“Trust me, I’m a card doctor.”

LOL! Might be my favorite Frank quote so far

!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

LOL! Might be my favorite Frank quote so far

!

"I'm not a card doctor, but I play one on Net54"

Brian

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Two problems.

1. White dots on the new one near his right arm and hip that aren't on the other make me think these aren't a match.

these aren't the same card. see the various "white" areas along his jersey and the red. they aren't consistent between the two, in fact one of them doesn't really have them at all. add that to the white dots noted above, and these aren't the same card.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I hear ya Pete. And it’s in a new flip, and certainly a card of this “caliber” would not be new to the market, without fanfare. But maybe it’s a non-BSF that found its way into that holder . And re BSF, why would anyone take it out of a BSF flip? The BSF provenance proves the validity of its authenticity (and grade, I guess).

I would love to see physical evidence that this was once in a BSF flip. And I would love to see the grade on the flip. Do we have that info? Could be a huge black eye for all involved; at least (black) eye opening

I would think dropping an email to BODA would get all the questions answered...

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Two problems.

1. White dots on the new one near his right arm and hip that aren't on the other make me think these aren't a match.

Is it my imagination or do both of these have the exact same slight skew (diamond cut)?

Also the white dot on the bottom right edge of the shirt (hemline) appears to be identical?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Is it my imagination or do both of these have the exact same slight skew (diamond cut)?

Also the white dot on the bottom right edge of the shirt (hemline) appears to be identical?

The sheets would have been cut in stacks, so any card from the same position on the sheet and in that same stack would have the same diamond cut.

A light spot on a uniform is part of the design I would expect it to be the same.

The registration is different.