How did this get graded by PSA???

[whiteymet]

Hi All:

I know I have, and perhaps many of you have tried to get odd ball never before seen before cards graded by PSA.

I have been told that without multiple historical references ( SCD Standard catalog, written up in hobby publications etc.) that PSA will not grade any thing. I tried with a 1952 N.Y. Giants team issue in the original envelope. And was refused. I have heard from others with similar stories.

Yet suddenly three "new" cards from a set no one ever heard of or seen before pops up and this DiMaggio gets encased.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=41665

I have seen another Joe Garagiola online and saw a Musial at the National.

I know they are "similar" to the 1949 Schumacher Service Station issue, but is that enough for PSA to accept it and grade it?

Anyone have thoughts on what criteria PSA used to grade this card? I am not casting aspersions on if it is legit or not, just how PSA is not consistent on what they decide to grade

Please show things you have submitted to PSA but were denied their official imprimatur

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Usually the submitter can provide enough information (not just their own say so, but actual evidence) about the set.

I had a fight with them over the only known (at the time unknown) 1909 Rose Postcard Cy Young. It had the sticker covering the team name as he was traded between 1908 and 1909. There are several known players who were also traded in that time frame who had the sticker variation already accepted by PSA, but they called mine "altered" I had to provide all of the articles and information about the sticker variations and convince them that the hobby knew a Cy Young variation SHOULD exist, it just hadn't been discovered until now.

They went through the material I provided and ultimately acquiesced and put a number on it.

Slightly different case for an unknown card, but a similar process I'm sure.

[trib01]

I have had many conversations with PSA over items they refused to grade. I cited hobby sources (Lyman Hardeman and oldcardboard, this forum, etc.), and they still refused. Some time ago I submitted a card for grading and received a horrible grade. Simply out of curiosity I cracked the card and gave it to a friend that submitted thousands of cards a year and received a 2 grade bump on the same card. There is not much a science to what they do. I use them to this day, so I really have no ability to argue or complain, but I would love if they followed their own grading guidelines or listened to actual hobby veterans who have been in this for decades.

[4815162342]

I’m curious to hear about the Musial. I didn’t see it last week.

[whiteymet]

I'd like to know what information the owner could have provided for this set. I have been in the hobby 62 years, dealt with a ton of regional cards as well as others and never heard of these nor have any other old timers I have canvassed.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I’m curious to hear about the Musial. I didn’t see it last week.

Here you go:

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Here you go:

Wow, thanks!

[sflayank]

i saw it there also
i should have held it
im not sure... but i would guess legit because of the spearmint gum wrapper
but who knows and have no clue how psa decided

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Wow, thanks!

I knew I made a mistake when I let a few people take a picture of it. Live and learn..(Kicking myself......)

The internet is great and it sucks all at the same time. They are as real as the day is long. They are real because when you hold them and analyze them, and you have collected vintage cards for 25+ yrs almost every day, you know they are real. They feel real and they resemble the Shumacher cards almost exactly. Not a stretch by any means. I wouldn't doubt more of these, or other service station ones, show up in the future.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by Leon

I knew I made a mistake when I let a few people take a picture of it. Live and learn..(Kicking myself......)

The internet is great and it sucks all at the same time. They are as real as the day is long. They are real because when you hold them and analyze them, and you have collected vintage cards for 25+ yrs almost every day, you know they real. They feel real and they resemble the Shumacher cards almost exactly. Not a stretch by any means. I wouldn't doubt more of these, or other service station ones, show up in the future.

Leon:

You did not let me take a photo of the card. I took the photo before you bought it from RMY.

As I said in my original post I am not saying the card is not legit. My only question is how PSA graded the DiMaggio with no supporting prior knowledge about the set in the hobby.

Curious why you did not have PSA grade the Musial?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Leon:

You did not let me take a photo of the card. I took the photo before you bought it from RMY.

As I said in my original post I am not saying the card is not legit. My only question is how PSA graded the DiMaggio with no supporting prior knowledge about the set in the hobby.

Thanks Fred. Sorry about that. I thought you might have gotten it from someone that asked me to take a picture of it, as there were several. I was hoping to talk about it after the one in auction now. Yes, it was for sale and I liked it, so I bought it.

Not pertaining to PSA, but if a collector can't hold this (Musial card) in their hand, loop it, black light it, and know it's real....then I dunno. I don't have any great card senses but it feels and looks just like my Schumacher cards. CGC felt it was real also. It will be interesting to see where the Dimaggio goes in auction. John Rumirez (hey John) had his doubts too. But he admitted it might be because he didn't have it LOL. Love you, John LOL....

And a Shumacher card..

.

[perezfan]

They have no standards.... it's just a money grab. Consider this...

You can buy an entire display box of Topps 1968 Posters for $575. Yes, you get the complete and entire Box for $575....

https://rockhurstauctions.com/LotDet...entoryid=13073

OR.... you can cut away the Mantle portion of the box, which is die-cut at the top and attached at the bottom. It was meant to be flapped up for retail display purposes. It was never meant to be cut away from the box. But if you decide to deface it, you can charge $7,500 for the altered Mantle image inside of a PSA slab. That's 13 times the cost of the full un-altered Box.... What a difference a slab makes...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145765980141

And lastly, if you deface the Display Box just right (and know the perfect random spot to guide your scissors) you can get a NUMBER Grade from PSA! This altered example was assigned a 3.5 grade for some unknown reason. But this particular Box Defacer only charges $5,500 for his example... that's only 10 times the cost of the full box. What a deal.... makes you want to ask PSA what even qualifies this as a "card"....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196454276591

[Lucas00]

PSA will grade anything you have good evidence for. For example I helped get a few very rare (almost unique) Brooks Robinson items graded for a big Brooks collector, none of that was needed. Just good research. It's how every PSA card ever was graded. Obviously cgc thinks the same as well. It's pretty clear they're good.

Like Larry has said to me before, when one comes out others realize what they have and follow. I think he used mascot dog food as the example. (Though I doubt many follow knowing how rare the Schumachers are)

My question is how did folks get the crazy rare Pre war 1880s-1920s cards graded with basically no ability to research because there is no info to research lol.

Congratulations on the Musial Leon that's a great looking card. I have no doubt Red also exists like he's said to in the Schumacher set.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

I knew I made a mistake when I let a few people take a picture of it. Live and learn..(Kicking myself......)

The internet is great and it sucks all at the same time. They are as real as the day is long. They are real because when you hold them and analyze them, and you have collected vintage cards for 25+ yrs almost every day, you know they real. They feel real and they resemble the Shumacher cards almost exactly. Not a stretch by any means. I wouldn't doubt more of these, or other service station ones, show up in the future.

Congrats, Leon. Very cool card.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by perezfan

They have no standards.... it's just a money grab. Consider this...

You can buy an entire display box of Topps 1968 Posters for $575. Yes, you get the complete and entire Box for $575....

https://rockhurstauctions.com/LotDet...entoryid=13073

OR.... you can cut away the Mantle portion of the box, which is die-cut at the top and attached at the bottom. It was meant to be flapped up for retail display purposes. It was never meant to be cut away from the box. But if you decide to deface it, you can charge $7,500 for the altered Mantle image inside of a PSA slab. That's 13 times the cost of the full un-altered Box.... What a difference a slab makes...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145765980141

And lastly, if you deface the Display Box just right (and know the perfect random spot to guide your scissors) you can get a NUMBER Grade from PSA! This altered example was assigned a 3.5 grade for some unknown reason. But this particular Box Defacer only charges $5,500 for his example... that's only 10 times the cost of the full box. What a deal.... makes you want to ask PSA what even qualifies this as a "card"....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196454276591

Wow! Completely mind boggling.

[Leon]

Overall, with exception to Henry Yee over there, I don't care for PSA grading or the way they do business.

I should mention, I couldn't care less if others use PSA> Money > can't blame them. I guess, if I were trying to have the best of a set, I would almost have to do a PSA registry.

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Leon:

You did not let me take a photo of the card. I took the photo before you bought it from RMY.

As I said in my original post I am not saying the card is not legit. My only question is how PSA graded the DiMaggio with no supporting prior knowledge about the set in the hobby.

Curious why you did not have PSA grade the Musial?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by sflayank

i saw it there also
i should have held it
im not sure... but i would guess legit because of the spearmint gum wrapper
but who knows and have no clue how psa decided

Agreed on the matter of a gum wrapper (seems hard to fake), although it is strange to me that such effort was taken to create these-- looks like four different fonts/typesets plus a color logo on the back of what is an otherwise rather plain card where the front name almost seems typewritten.

FWIW, newspaper research confirms the existence of the two Aero service stations at the addresses indicated, which Al noted in the listing were about a mile apart. They appear in ads from at least 1947-50, although no mention of the cards there.

Also in case it wasn't already known, the Schumacher Service station cards seem relatively certain to me as coming from Henry Schumacher's station in Belleville, IL, basically a suburb of St. Louis. I did not see that mentioned on other threads here on net54, so maybe that is old news.

EDITED TO ADD that there is a large ad in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on 10/12/1950 for "G-Day" at your Gulf dealers in which an orchid would be given to the ladies and a gift for all the kids "either a treat or a toy". Both Aero and Schumacher are listed among more than 60 different dealers in the area.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed on the matter of a gum wrapper (seems hard to fake), although it is strange to me that such effort was taken to create these-- looks like four different fonts/typesets plus a color logo on the back of what is an otherwise rather plain card where the front name almost seems typewritten.

FWIW, newspaper research confirms the existence of the two Aero service stations at the addresses indicated, which Al noted in the listing were about a mile apart. They appear in ads from at least 1947-50, although no mention of the cards there.

Also in case it wasn't already known, the Schumacher Service station cards seem relatively certain to me as coming from Henry Schumacher's station in Belleville, IL, basically a suburb of St. Louis. I did not see that mentioned on other threads here on net54, so maybe that is old news.

EDITED TO ADD that there is a large ad in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on 10/12/1950 for "G-Day" at your Gulf dealers in which an orchid would be given to the ladies and a gift for all the kids "either a treat or a toy". Both Aero and Schumacher are listed among more than 60 different dealers in the area.

Good additional info Todd, I definitely don't think it's a coincidence both sets are Gulf Oil stations. These were most definitely made by Gulf Oil in my opinion.

Another thing about the Joe D (also mentioned by Al), is the scrapbook toned corners. I've never heard of that on a fake card. And think it's as good as it gets in terms of legitimacy. You can't just fake 70+ years of corner toning.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Leon

Overall, with exception to Henry Yee over there, I don't care for PSA grading or the way they do business.

I should mention, I couldn't care less if others use PSA> Money > can't blame them. I guess, if I were trying to have the best of a set, I would almost have to do a PSA registry.

Yes to all of this!!!!!

I have submitted uncatalogued items to PSA at least 6 or 7 times and regardless of what research I have provided them, they reject it. Always demanding that it be in a catalog. Often, my research has been characterized as crowd sourced...you know...just like the ACC that is the basis for all of our hobby guides. At PSA it is all about who you know and who you are. Never about what you have to submit.

Up until recently, I could go to SGC with the same research and the items would be graded but that changed once Collectors bought them.