Ohtani or Ruth?

[bk400]

Gotta do it!

[bk400]

I don't think Ruth was as good a two-way player as Ohtani, particularly since he only had two seasons (WWI seasons, at that) where he did both -- and those were before he peaked as a hitter.

And that's setting aside the strong arguments that favor Ohtani's playing era as being far more competitive and professional.

[cliffyb]

Ruth, due to longevity. I’m honored to be the lucky first to respond. Ruth won only one MVP because at the beginning of his career there was no MVP award and then, after it was created, because of a rule during his career prohibiting anyone from winning more than once. My 17-year baseball playing son says Ruth had a big advantage over Ohtani because Ruth played against common men. Ruth’s OPS+ was over 200 in eleven seasons. Ohtani zero. And Ruth was a more dominant pitcher than Ohtani is. Of course, I didn’t get to see Ruth play. If Ohtani keeps this up then maybe he’ll be the guy.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Gotta do it!

I'm going to put this out there, that the comparison between these two is absolutely pointless considering how much the game, and quite frankly, life has changed within the past 100 years.

In Ruth's era players worked second jobs, medicine was basic, there was barely anything resembling modern athletic training, and players traveled on sleeper cars. How the game was played was entirely different, and this is all before we even attempt to open up the can of worms that is the lack of integration of the game back then. We can only compare a player relative to his peers.

What makes Babe most impressive was his sheer domination that literally redefined the game. He hit 600 Homers before anyone hit 300. There were seasons where he literally out homered entire teams. He brought baseball into a completely new era, and single-handedly carried the popularity of the sport on his back.

If you wish to use modern statistics to compare Ruth, to everyone else in the history of the game, his domination still reigns supreme. Ruth is the all-time leader in OPS, OPS+, WAR, and Offensive WAR. He Led the league in OPS in 13 out of 14 seasons from 1918-1931. If we use a stat such as Weighted Runs Created Plus, which is an era adjusted statistic, that neutralizes park values he is the all time leader with a 194 wRC+. The fact that we're still talking about him almost 100 years after his retirement speaks volumes.

Ohtani is the superior athlete. Of course he is, that's common sense. Ohtani lives in 2025 and has access to modern training, facilities, nutrition, and recovery techniques. You cannot compare the two because life itself is so different. This comparison is apples to oranges. We just need to enjoy what we get to watch.

[Beercan collector]

I voted Ruth, people have always tried to Compare someone to him but they’d have to hit like 100 home runs in a season, get 300 hits or do something almost unimaginable to have the impact Ruth had - Got to admit hitting three home runs and striking out 10 batters in a playoff game is truly Ruthian

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Seven

I'm going to put this out there, that the comparison between these two is absolutely pointless considering how much the game, and quite frankly, life has changed within the past 100 years.

In Ruth's era players worked second jobs, medicine was basic, there was barely anything resembling modern athletic training, and players traveled on sleeper cars. How the game was played was entirely different, and this is all before we even attempt to open up the can of worms that is the lack of integration of the game back then. We can only compare a player relative to his peers.

What makes Babe most impressive was his sheer domination that literally redefined the game. He hit 600 Homers before anyone hit 300. There were seasons where he literally out homered entire teams. He brought baseball into a completely new era, and single-handedly carried the popularity of the sport on his back.

If you wish to use modern statistics to compare Ruth, to everyone else in the history of the game, his domination still reigns supreme. Ruth is the all-time leader in OPS, OPS+, WAR, and Offensive WAR. He Led the league in OPS in 13 out of 14 seasons from 1918-1931. If we use a stat such as Weighted Runs Created Plus, which is an era adjusted statistic, that neutralizes park values he is the all time leader with a 194 wRC+. The fact that we're still talking about him almost 100 years after his retirement speaks volumes.

Ohtani is the superior athlete. Of course he is, that's common sense. Ohtani lives in 2025 and has access to modern training, facilities, nutrition, and recovery techniques. You cannot compare the two because life itself is so different. This comparison is apples to oranges. We just need to enjoy what we get to watch.

Comparing players across eras is unfair and logically untenable, but nevertheless a fun exercise.

Here's my counterargument:

Ruth was likely a genetic outlier, which allowed him to dominate as a hitter against "common men", as your son put it, for the entirety of his career.

Ohtani is playing in an era where every player is likely not only a genetic outlier in a global (and not just white American) gene pool, but also has access to modern medicine, diet and training. His stats relative to his era won't be as impressive as Ruth's, but that's because Ohtani's era is so much more competitive. It may well be much harder to have an OPS+ of 160 today than it is to have an OPS+ of 200 in Ruth's era because of the high percentage of common men playing major league baseball in Ruth's era versus the percentage of common men playing major league baseball today.

As for impact on the game, it's hard to tell. In Ruth's era, there were far fewer competing forms of professional sports entertainment, and far less access. Yes, Ruth boosted baseball's popularity in America at the time, but is that as impressive as what Ohtani has done for baseball's global popularity? In terms of number of incremental fans as a percentage of the global population, I wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani's impact on the game is bigger -- much bigger -- than Ruth's.

[hammertime]

It's a fun topic to debate, but as someone who is a big fan of the history of the game, and also a big fan and collector of Ohtani, personally I don't care if he's "better than Ruth" or not. We're watching greatness and whether he's the greatest to ever do it, or the 2nd greatest, I'm just going to enjoy it.

[SyrNy1960]

I'm a diehard Yankee and Judge fan. But what I can say about Shohei Ohtani is WOW! This guy is amazing! Back to the question, Babe Ruth all the way!!!

[robw1959]

It's always fun to chime in on stuff like this, but there's really never going to be someone as good as Babe Ruth again. He's the greatest home run hitter of all time not just because of the numbers, but because he outhomered entire teams on many occasions. People who make these comparisons forget one crucial fact - the fences were typically 450' from home plate in Ruth's day. Enough said.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by robw1959

It's always fun to chime in on stuff like this, but there's really never going to be someone as good as Babe Ruth again. He's the greatest home run hitter of all time not just because of the numbers, but because he outhomered entire teams on many occasions. People who make these comparisons forget one crucial fact - the fences were typically 450' from home plate in Ruth's day. Enough said.

Hmm, I read the opposite. The Polo Grounds was 258 feet to right field, and the House that Ruth Built was 295 to right field. It seems to be the case that dead center field in certain parks were deeper that it is today, but that's likely more than made up for by ridiculously short fences to right.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bk400

Ohtani is playing in an era where every player is likely not only a genetic outlier in a global (and not just white American) gene pool, but also has access to modern medicine, diet and training. His stats relative to his era won't be as impressive as Ruth's, but that's because Ohtani's era is so much more competitive. It may well be much harder to have an OPS+ of 160 today than it is to have an OPS+ of 200 in Ruth's era because of the high percentage of common men playing major league baseball in Ruth's era versus the percentage of common men playing major league baseball today.

Then maybe we should be comparing Aaron Judge to Babe Ruth because he didn't have a problem putting up OPS+ 225, 215 and 210 seasons while Ohtani's best season is 187. Ohtani is not the best hitter in the game. He doesn't play defense. He is an average baseball runner despite his 50 steal season. The last season before the rules change he attempted 20 stolen bases and was thrown out 9 times. His extra bases taken percentage of 42.1% is definitely not like Mays' 63%. Ohtani's best pitching season was worse than either of Ruth's two full seasons of pitching.

Ohtani's argument for the greatest comes down to being really good at many things, but so are the arguments for Babe Ruth and Willie Mays who performed at a high level for ~20 years. When Ohtani has put in a similar amount of time is the only time to compare him to the greatest in the game. I heard these arguments for Albert Pujols and Mike Trout until their careers fell off a cliff. Now their 101 and 87 WAR doesn't seem so impressive and neither should Ohtani's 51.5.

[Tomi]

He's a full time DH. Let Ohtani play the field everyday and put mileage on his body and see where his numbers go. Mays and Ruth easily.
Judge is a better hitter than Ohtani. A .282 lifetime average and people want to compare him to Ruth. No one was a better hitter than Ruth when he played.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Tomi

He's a full time DH. Let Ohtani play the field everyday and put mileage on his body and see where his numbers go.

Great point. Also Ohtani has pitched around 40% of the innings that Ruth pitched.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Tomi

He's a full time DH. Let Ohtani play the field everyday and put mileage on his body and see where his numbers go. Mays and Ruth easily.
Judge is a better hitter than Ohtani. A .282 lifetime average and people want to compare him to Ruth. No one was a better hitter than Ruth when he played.

Where would he have played in the field without the DH after his surgery? Would he have done a Rico Carty and played in the outfield and threw the ball underhanded? Anyone remember that?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by rats60

Then maybe we should be comparing Aaron Judge to Babe Ruth because he didn't have a problem putting up OPS+ 225, 215 and 210 seasons while Ohtani's best season is 187. Ohtani is not the best hitter in the game. He doesn't play defense. He is an average baseball runner despite his 50 steal season. The last season before the rules change he attempted 20 stolen bases and was thrown out 9 times. His extra bases taken percentage of 42.1% is definitely not like Mays' 63%. Ohtani's best pitching season was worse than either of Ruth's two full seasons of pitching.

Ohtani's argument for the greatest comes down to being really good at many things, but so are the arguments for Babe Ruth and Willie Mays who performed at a high level for ~20 years. When Ohtani has put in a similar amount of time is the only time to compare him to the greatest in the game. I heard these arguments for Albert Pujols and Mike Trout until their careers fell off a cliff. Now their 101 and 87 WAR doesn't seem so impressive and neither should Ohtani's 51.5.

Well, Aaron Judge and Willie Mays never pitched. The debate assumes that elite pitching and elite hitting are such a rare combination that anyone who can do both for any appreciable period of time is a superior baseball player than a traditional five-tool position player (like Mays) or 3-4 tool player (like Judge), no matter how good those pure position players were. And the only two players to have elite pitching and elite hitting in their resumes are Ohtani and Ruth.

Ruth was basically a two-way player for 2 seasons, and that's probably being generous. Ruth seems to get more credit for being an elite pitcher and then becoming an elite hitter, with some overlap between the two. Ohtani is going to win 3 MVPs as a two-way player and 1 as a two-tool player in only 8 seasons.

Most fundamentally, in order to believe that Ruth is better than Ohtani, you'd have to believe that the level of competition in Ruth's era is even in the same ballpark as that today. And I just don't see that as being the case.

[BabyRuth]

I wonder how I voted?

[packs]

I think the distance between Ruth and the next player was far greater than Ohtani and his peers.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by packs

I think the distance between Ruth and the next player was far greater than Ohtani and his peers.

Yeah, the second best pitcher today who hits 50 bombs a year and steals 20+ bases is who exactly? Trying to figure out who his peers are.

[TUM301]

Babe has his own adjective for a reason. He truly was, Ruthian 💪

[G1911]

Some people want to conclude the players they watch today are better and some want to conclude for nostalgia and the old-timers, but considering Ruth completely rewrote how the game was played and Ohtani has played 1,500 games less than him, this is an absurd comparison to make now and the last thread on it lol. Just let Ohtani be great and awesome and figure out where he ends when he's reasonably close to the end at least. The Ruth comparisons are not based in reality at this point in time. At least pick some modern guy who has played something approaching a full career to declare better than Ruth.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by TUM301

Babe has his own adjective for a reason. He truly was, Ruthian 💪

Ohtanian

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, the second best pitcher today who hits 50 bombs a year and steals 20+ bases is who exactly? Trying to figure out who his peers are.

If they let Wes Ferrell play the field he would be the only guy worthy of being discussed in Ohtani's league and Ohtani beats him in talent in both areas by a mile.

Smoky Joe Wood coming in at a distance 3rd, maybe Don Newcombe in the area...unless some of the Negro League guys are liked a bit better (I'm not that familiar)...

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

If they let Wes Ferrell play the field he would be the only guy worthy of being discussed in Ohtani's league and Ohtani beats him in talent in both areas by a mile.

Smoky Joe Wood coming in at a distance 3rd, maybe Don Newcombe in the area...unless some of the Negro League guys are liked a bit better (I'm not that familiar)...

Don Newcombe was a great hitter who Walter Alston would sometimes use as a pinch hitter.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, the second best pitcher today who hits 50 bombs a year and steals 20+ bases is who exactly? Trying to figure out who his peers are.

You can’t go wrong with Ohtani or Judge if you were building a team but while Ruth played there was no other choice but Ruth. That’s what I mean by distance. If you ask who is the best player in baseball many people will say Ohtani and many will say Judge but you would have only heard Ruth.

[Snapolit1]

People can debate who is a "better player" Ohtani or Judge, or Ohtani or Ruth till they are blue in the face. But there is no denying that Ohtani has done things that no one in the history of the game has ever done. Ruth made the sport what it is . . . Judge is a great hitter, has one clutch post season HR to his name . . . but they never had a night like what Ohtani did last night. A starting pitcher hit 3 homeruns. . . . that travelled an estimated 1,342 feet. A few other facts lifted from the Atlantic.

- Before last night, only 2 starting pitchers had 2 postseason HRs IN THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS. (Gibson, McNally)

- Only 3 players in baseball history had ever hit 3 HRs in a regular season game and thrown a pitch in a post season game IN THEIR CAREERS.

- Otani had more HRs last night than hits allowed

- First leadoff HR by a pitcher in any MLB baseball game ever as far as can be determined

- No pitcher in baseball history has struck out the side and hit a homerun in the same inning of a post season game

- Never hit 2 HRs in a post season game: Mays, Aaron, McGwire, Schmidt, Griffey Jr., and a few thousand other guys.

[tycobb]

"Maybe the best individual performance ever in a Postseason game. I don't think anyone can argue with that."

- Pat Murphy on Shohei Ohtani


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[raulus]

Originally Posted by tycobb

"Maybe the best individual performance ever in a Postseason game. I don't think anyone can argue with that."

- Pat Murphy on Shohei Ohtani


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One game is great and all, but probably not the basis for comparing greatness.

My man Pablo Sandoval hit 3 home runs in a WORLD SERIES game, and no one is arguing that he should be considered great.

And these days where strikeouts are a dime a dozen, 10 strikeouts for a pitcher in a game seems to happen about half of the time.

Ohtani is certainly an elite player, but let’s not get carried away.

[Exhibitman]

Too soon to say. Last night was the greatest single game performance in history but you can’t sum up a career midstream. Ohtani is not the hitter Ruth was. 22nd in OPS, 13th in SLG. Ruth leads both.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why on earth would you bat Ohtani lead off? Surely he would generate more runs batting 3rd or 4th. It seems willfully stupid. As far as Adam's too soon comment, at 50 combined WAR, Ohtani has a long way to go to catch Ruth at 180 and obviously is never going to get remotely close to that. Just one measure of course, but by the numbers Ruth was a better pitcher and a much better hitter, in relative terms. That takes nothing at all away from Ohtani.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why on earth would you bat Ohtani lead off? Surely he would generate more runs batting 3rd or 4th.

You want your best hitter getting the most PAs. There's no shortage of things to criticize Roberts for, but this isn't one of them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You want your best hitter getting the most PAs. There's no shortage of things to criticize Roberts for, but this isn't one of them.

In the history of baseball, power hitters have batted third or fourth and there is a reason for that. The extra number of at bats Ohtani gets from batting first which turns out to be not THAT many is far outweighed by the increased number of opportunities to drive in runs that comes from dropping down a couple of places in the order. Ohtani's RBI totals would be dramatically higher if he batted behind, say, Betts and Freeman. Research it if you don't believe me. Did Babe Ruth lead off? Ted Williams? DiMaggio? Mays? Mantle? Aaron? Musial? Bonds? A Rod? Pujols? Look at the top 50 HR hitters in history and tell me how many of them batted lead off.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the history of baseball, power hitters have batted third or fourth and there is a reason for that. The extra number of at bats Ohtani gets from batting first which turns out to be not THAT many is far outweighed by the increased number of opportunities to drive in runs that comes from dropping down a couple of places in the order. Research it if you don't believe me. Did Babe Ruth lead off? Ted Williams? DiMaggio? Mays? Mantle? Musial? Bonds? A Rod? Pujols?

Of course you are right about the history. I'm not a "the analytics are always right" person, but there's a reason most teams now bat their big boppers higher in the order. (More teams tend to put them 2nd now)

That said, Roberts had Ohtani 2nd behind Betts for a long time, but then moved Ohtani up when Betts was out. It seemed to work, so he left him there. I think L vs R has a lot to do with it too—against Righties, Ohtani leading off lets you go Betts/Freeman/Smith after that (or put even more lefties higher in the order, if desired).

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why on earth would you bat Ohtani lead off? Surely he would generate more runs batting 3rd or 4th. It seems willfully stupid. As far as Adam's too soon comment, at 50 combined WAR, Ohtani has a long way to go to catch Ruth at 180 and obviously is never going to get remotely close to that. Just one measure of course, but by the numbers Ruth was a better pitcher and a much better hitter, in relative terms. That takes nothing at all away from Ohtani.

Remember though, that WAR compares you to your contemporaries, so that brings you back to the level of competition being much flatter (at a higher level) than in Ruth's day.

[BioCRN]

Cy Young quality arm. MVP quality bat. Ohtani.

Not close, not approximate, but literal.

His only knocks are health for pitching and not playing the field.

There is no comparison for anyone this great on 2 of the 3 most important aspects of the game (hitting, pitching, defense)...arguably the 2 most important aspects even when weighing defense...

The game as we expect it to be played is 100-120+ years old depending on where you want to draw a line and he has no peer. If he was doing this in the 1950s we wouldn't care as much about Mantle and we'd appreciate Mays for his defense, but wow, that Ohtani guy.

[rats60]

he may not

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Cy Young quality arm. MVP quality bat. Ohtani.

Not close, not approximate, but literal.

His only knocks are health for pitching and not playing the field.

There is no comparison for anyone this great on 2 of the 3 most important aspects of the game (hitting, pitching, defense)...arguably the 2 most important aspects even when weighing defense...

The game as we expect it to be played is 100-120+ years old depending on where you want to draw a line and he has no peer. If he was doing this in the 1950s we wouldn't care as much about Mantle and we'd appreciate Mays for his defense, but wow, that Ohtani guy.

Ohtani may not even be the best player in the game today. Aaron Judge is a much better hitter, OPS+ 179 to OPS+ 160. Judge is a plus defender, Ohtani is a no defender. Ohtani's "not Cy Young quality" arm has been worth 16 WAR in 6 seasons. WAR is the only way to measure two completely different skill sets. Judge has been worth 8.8 WAR/162 games, Ohtani 8.2 WAR/162 games. Both elite players, but you can't say Ohtani is better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Remember though, that WAR compares you to your contemporaries, so that brings you back to the level of competition being much flatter (at a higher level) than in Ruth's day.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that if you just beamed Babe Ruth forward 100 years with his then-level of conditioning, training, nutrition, etc. and put him on the mound or in the batter's box, he would not be nearly as good as he was against his contemporaries. I know people will disagree with that. But to me it's not really the point.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I could be wrong, but I suspect that if you just beamed Babe Ruth forward 100 years with his then-level of conditioning, training, nutrition, etc. and put him on the mound or in the batter's box, he would not be nearly as good as he was against his contemporaries. I know people will disagree with that. But to me it's not really the point.

My point is that it was easier for Ruth to run up more WAR against his contemporaries than it is for Shohei to do the same against his since it's a comparative stat.

[todeen]

Another card...



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[Exhibitman]

[hammertime]

A couple of my favorite Ohtanis.

[doug.goodman]

I would have voted "neither".

They both exist in different dimensions with their own gravitational rules.

We mere mortals are lucky that we are allowed to witness them.



Every high school has a guy who is the star pitcher, hitter, quarterback and basketball player, at some point they are all forced to pick a direction.

Every so often they don't (Bo, Dieon, etc.), but that's not the point.

Babe was one of the best pitchers in baseball. Then he set the all time record for home runs in a season (breaking a record that had stood for 35 years), switched teams, nearly doubled his own record the next year. Became the all time MLB HR leader the next year, a record he held for more than half a century, and only pitched 31 more inning in his career, while hitting 665 more homers.


Could Ruth have done specifically what Ohtani is doing?


Rick Wise threw a no-hitter while also hitting two homers. Was that a "better game"?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Rick Wise threw a no-hitter while also hitting two homers. Was that a "better game"?

For sure -- but for the fact that it wasn't in the playoffs.

[theshowandme]

OP is asking who is better.

All of you are talking about Most Accomplished.

I take “better” as more talented.

No one has been more talented than Shohei Ohtani in the sport of baseball.

Throws 100 mph, insane breaking stuff, and hits 50 bombs a year against pitchers also throwing 100 mph at him, often times seeing 3-4 pitchers a game

Ruth will always be King for Most Accomplished

But it’s okay to think guys 100+ years later are more talented.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

OP is asking who is better.

All of you are talking about Most Accomplished.

I take “better” as more talented.

No one has been more talented than Shohei Ohtani in the sport of baseball.

Throws 100 mph, insane breaking stuff, and hits 50 bombs a year against pitchers also throwing 100 mph at him, often times seeing 3-4 pitchers a game

Ruth will always be King for Most Accomplished

But it’s okay to think guys 100+ years later are more talented.

This is how I see it. When discussing "who is better" are we going by career accomplishments? Or who is more talented?

Ohtani is more talented. Ruth certainly accomplished more. I don't think either of these are really debatable.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This is how I see it. When discussing "who is better" are we going by career accomplishments? Or who is more talented?

Ohtani is more talented. Ruth certainly accomplished more. I don't think either of these are really debatable.

I strongly disagree.

[Snapolit1]

Lots of people who were born 50 years after Ruth died are experts in his raw talent level. Interesting.

His accomplishments are on paper. How his level of talent matches up to the best players today? It doesn't. Would be as silly as arguing that the best mile runner in 1934 or best field goal kicker in 1950 anyway be competitive today. They wouldn't.

Could Ruth have thrived today with all the advance in training, medicine, etc? Who tf knows. His bout with venereal disease wouldn't have helped.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Lots of people who were born 50 years after Ruth died are experts in his raw talent level. Interesting.

His accomplishments are on paper. How his level of talent matches up to the best players today? It doesn't. Would be as silly as arguing that the best mile runner in 1934 or best field goal kicker in 1950 anyway be competitive today. They wouldn't.

Could Ruth have thrived today with all the advance in training, medicine, etc? Who tf knows. His bout with venereal disease wouldn't have helped.

This 🏆

[tycobb]

Some younger cats perspective on the clinching game .

https://youtu.be/Z17YL_G3wKQ?si=Y40B_noc8TYfdZ1S


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[theshowandme]

The 2025 Brewers pitchers would probably no hit the 1927 Yankees multiple times in a 7 game series

[jacksons]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

The 2025 Brewers pitchers would probably no hit the 1927 Yankees multiple times in a 7 game series

This isn’t really debatable. I’m sure Yelich would also struggle hitting a dirty emery ball in the 6th inning with no stadium lights and a 40-48oz bat.

Maybe the way to compare Ruth and Ohtani is more about how dominant they were in their eras, compared to their peers. Was anyone even close to what Ruth was doing? Is anyone even close to what Ohtani is doing? I give Ruth the edge in this context.