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spence authentication knowledge or reputation
today JSA was at a local card show....I brought with me a muhammad ali 8x10 photo...the photo was signed by ali in my presence 16 years ago at the sawgrass mills mall in sunrise florida...at the time that was probably the biggest mall card show there was...i was set up at the table directly in front of the autograph signing podium...at the end of the signing session..the sunrise police office on stage...a baseball card collector and buddy of mine...had ali sign 5 photos...he kept 2 and gave the other 3 to myself and the 2 dealers next to me..i placed the photo on one of those old wooden plaques that noone uses anymore...and its been in my closet for 16 years...today Mr Spence told me in his opinion it was a forgery...so after 3 seconds of examination and $75 my personally witnessed autograph became worthless...the lesson here is just further proof that having a reputation gives you a license to steal...he did not compare to any examples...was he comparing it to his memory of ali's signature today...does he know what it looked like 16 years ago...or was he just making $75 for 3 seconds of work....you tell me
Last edited by sflayank; 06-04-2011 at 01:54 PM. |
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That is the exact reason why I always remind myself not to get too involved in the autograph scene. I have a bunch of autos the I had signed in person and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them came back bad.
Where you getting it authenticated to sell the item? |
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Jsa
This happened to me with a Derrick Thomas card I had signed in person in May of 1997. It was part of a promotion at the Football Hall of Fame, he was seated with Len Dawson in a calm controlled atmosphere, so his signature was not rushed. Anywhoo...The last time the National was in Cleveland I had JSA do there thing and in there opinion it was fake. Easy money. Following year gave PSA a try and passed with flying colors. I think since I was a no name collector and I have an autograph of a short lived Hall of Famer and also that I'm a little on the younger side in age, JSA really never gave much effort in it's examination.
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#4
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ali auto
yes i was getting it authenticated to sell
i dont collect autographs and just found it while cleaning out stuff nobody buys today unless authenticated so for $75 i figured id get 150 back and get rid of it...instead i threw $75 down the drain and just gave it to a dealer at the show there.. |
#5
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Quote:
__________________
[I]"When you photograph people in colour you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in B&W, you photograph their souls." ~Ted Grant Www.weingartensvintage.com https://www.facebook.com/WeingartensVintage http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...ben-weingarten ALWAYS BUYING BABE RUTH RED SOX TYPE 1 PHOTOGRAPHS--->To add to my collection Last edited by Forever Young; 06-04-2011 at 03:40 PM. |
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Jsa
Regardless of Spence's ability or lack of same, I don't blame him for getting fool's to part with their money. Because collectors buy into his and PSA's so called "expertise", they need to look no further than into a mirror and ask why anyone would pay $75 for a 3 second opinion and a wrong one at that?
Martin Green |
#7
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#8
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it's not true, you can sell items not certified, me and my friends do it all the time, we sell at retail too. we just sell to collectors who are serious collectors and know what they are buying. the good stuff will sell without a cert by one of the guessing companies. i am not against 3rd party authentication, just the way it is done now. i think mr. simon is better than most, and doesnt deserved to be lumped into the big companies that take 3 seconds to tell you that you have a fake. but its par for the course when these companies set up in booths at shows. they want to pump through the material and collect as much cash as they can.
but you certainly don't need authentication in the form of 3rd party certificates to sell items. if you must have one, check out the authenticator, get the name of the person who is actually looking at your item. if they dont give it to you, then vote with your wallet and go elsewhere. Travis Roste Last edited by travrosty; 06-04-2011 at 04:58 PM. Reason: adding name |
#9
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Speaking of Spence, what does this COA mean?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackie-Robinson-...item56446ab85a It lists the keys as Branca and Barney. Does that mean the Jackie is not authentic? Why list those two guys as keys? In the past, I thought JSA would list textually if one of the signatures was bad or clubhouse. This, to me, is very confusing. Anyone know?
__________________
For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com. |
#10
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Not to talk about JSA
But just to make a different point about autographs --
Back back in the day, one of the guys I used to work with at Beckett got an autograph from Frank (Big Hurt) Thomas in spring training in 1990. He got that autograph in person and I have no doubt that his is 100 percent authentic. Yet, even he realized that said autograph would probably never pass authentication becuase the signature is so much clearer than the signature he had just a year or so later when he became a major league star. The point is,... sigs do change --- and while it is more expensive -- sometimes in the show situation -- having the autograph autheticated at that point may save hassles later, especially is a signature changes over time (usually with people who are becoming more famous or having health issues) Regards Rich |
#11
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This is an unfortunate scenario that has probably played out many times. My sense is that certain heavily forged autographs are probably prone to getting the thumbs down if there is the slightest atypical characteristic.
The flip side of this scenario is that if JSA or PSA approves an item that looks the least bit fishy, certain attack sites will plaster it all over the front page and message boards screaming how incompetent they are and urge people to report them to the FBI. Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I really do understand how some experienced hobbyists resent third party authenticators and how they seemingly swooped in and became the be all and end all. But I think the anger should really be reserved for the forging scum. They are the ones who created the [perceived] need for third party authenticators.
__________________
Steve Zarelli Space Authentication Zarelli Space Authentication on Facebook Follow me on Twitter My blog: The Collecting Obsession |
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#13
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Dear.... Orioles1954, Do you have an example of an LOO that you could post? The letters I have seen states "In our considered OPINION". Wiggle room??? One would have to be a fool to think it was not an opinion. The terms LOA and COA have been around far before JSA AND PSA when the vast majority of those items were bad. I sold my collection today, I would have each and every item accompanied by an LOA from JSA AND/OR PSA. Again, they are not flawlesss but they do bring the highest realized prices on average. Ben
__________________
[I]"When you photograph people in colour you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in B&W, you photograph their souls." ~Ted Grant Www.weingartensvintage.com https://www.facebook.com/WeingartensVintage http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...ben-weingarten ALWAYS BUYING BABE RUTH RED SOX TYPE 1 PHOTOGRAPHS--->To add to my collection Last edited by Forever Young; 06-04-2011 at 08:39 PM. |
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3385/...037fdcae_z.jpg "Considered opinions are like.....". It's a wishy washy phrase that allows for shortcuts and backpeddling. I guarantee Mear's "opinion" was reached after far greater consultation than with the OP's item. |
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__________________
[I]"When you photograph people in colour you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in B&W, you photograph their souls." ~Ted Grant Www.weingartensvintage.com https://www.facebook.com/WeingartensVintage http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...ben-weingarten ALWAYS BUYING BABE RUTH RED SOX TYPE 1 PHOTOGRAPHS--->To add to my collection |
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Since being banned from eBay, FDEs such as Chris Morales, Nicholas Burczyk and Don Frangipani are probably looking for additional work.
__________________
Steve Zarelli Space Authentication Zarelli Space Authentication on Facebook Follow me on Twitter My blog: The Collecting Obsession |
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Hahaha...good point. I just wish the "considered opinions" are weighed in light of their leaders being long-time dealers rather than something more.
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#18
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you would think after the 5 second forged sal bando autograph debacle where the jsa authenticator didn't even take the signed photo into his own hands, and then told the lady "i trust you", that they would take more time authenticating signatures, but i guess not. its a sad situation.
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#19
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I agree that it is an opinion, but at $75 you deserve the time and effort of how he got to that opinion. Do they take the item behind a curtain, or is it done in front of you? Can you ask questions? I would think for the money people need to be treated better and time spent to show why he thinks it is not real. Sorry that you got a raw deal.
Mike |
#20
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spence
oh yes..and by the way what i didnt mention here...does anyone else here realize that spence himself probably doesnt even look at your piece...he was there yesterday...and one of his team was actually the person whose opinion i have to live with....spence never even looked at it...so apparently his team are experts too....and i should have asked for my money back...since i paid for spence to authenticate it...not a team member.. and the only role spence himself played was pocketing my cash
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This 'court certified' forensic document examiner nonsense also needs some sunlight. The associations that certify these people are diploma mills. Government authorities and courts don't certify witnesses--they do certify (at least in CA) translators to work translating testimony and documents, but not experts to opine on whether a document is genuine or a signature is real. What they mean when they say they are court qualified is that a court has allowed them to testify as an expert witness. The rule on that is loose: as long as the witness can show some expertise above that of a layman he will be allowed to testify, which is called being "qualified" as an expert. Any of us could qualify to testify as experts on what we collect. Doesn't mean our opinions are worth a damn, just that we have enough of a resume to give them. It is left to the judge and jury to decide if they are idiots or not.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 06-05-2011 at 07:01 AM. |
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Your mom is not happy with the blow up doll collection??
Sorry I could not resist
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#23
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Oh wow, yes as soon as the "team member" failed it, you should have immediately asked for Spence to view it himself. Im very sorry this happened to you. |
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We are currently trying 2 new companies that use the same large exemplar list but also check for embedded ink - age of paper and ink together - slant and correctness of time period autograph - type of item it was signed on {did it change the sig.} - Object evaluation as well as many other issues that seem to always come up. The drawback is the time to get your item back - 3-4 weeks - / For any buyer or seller you may want to stay away from a dealer who has a large inventory ungraded - but says i'll get it certed - and the item gets done in 30 seconds - I think thats what upset the Ali owner - how can you tell in 5 seconds without examing the item that was done 16 years ago - not to say autographs done 100 years ago - People are buying the cert and not the sig. - trust me many a dealer has said the same thing.
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#25
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Sorry to hear about your bad news.
Would it be possible to post a picture of the Ali signature for us to see? |
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So I'm in a similar situation where I wish to sell a few autographed items that were signed in front of me. Not going to use JSA after what I've read. What other autograph authentication services are out there that can be recommended?
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