|
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?
A current poster on our board who is very good at advertising his services, but really adds nothing else to the overall conversation of the board related on the memorabilia side that he can improve cards and that the graders can't tell.
Here's an interview I found on the net: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...le/nerattowle/ So if someone can't tell if he's removed a crease, indentation, ink, glue, et cetera does it matter? Do you want to know if your PSA 8 has been "improved"? Is this guy doing a service or a disservice to our hobby?
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
it's relative, imo
Quote:
I think we have to be more specific about what alterations/restorations/removals are being done. We have had this discussion only about a million times. Many of us don't mind taking something off of a card that wasn't originally meant to be there ie... pencil marks, glue (maybe), pen marks, paper scraps etc. Even soaking in water is more accepted than not, by many collectors. However, many of us also think that removing creases and other things isn't so good. My concern with the removal of creases is that it has been stated they can come back over time. I have never tried to remove a crease so I don't know. I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common. Last edited by Leon; 08-20-2009 at 04:22 PM. Reason: typo |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
Removing creases for a dealer so he can sell it for a much higher price is aiding and abetting a fraud, plain and simple.
|
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Boy would I love to see Dick's client list.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
The standard answer for whether altering a card is ethical is always the same: if it is disclosed then there is nothing wrong with it. But we all know too well that if thousands of cards are to be treated with this formula, many of the procedures will not be disclosed. Perhaps even the majority won't.
Here is my read as it applies to the grading companies. There are two things that graders do that are an asset to the hobby: 1) They check a card for alterations, ostensibly making it safe for buyers to purchase it in a dangerous marketplace. 2) They grade cards, and I think we all agree that the value of any baseball card is predicated on the grade it receives, hopefully an accurate one. If this new product is as successful as Dick says, here is what will happen: 1) The grading companies will no longer be able to tell with any accuracy whether or not a card has been tampered with since the alterations will be undetectable. 2) They will no longer be able to grade cards accurately since ones in Good and Very Good holders will be broken out, processed, and reappear as Excellent or EX-MT. The result is that the assessment of any card will be less reliable than ever. Can anybody see this being a good thing (unless you are one who hopes for the demise of third party grading)? |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Too easy so I will let this one go.
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Borrrriiinngggggg.....
Actually Bretta you and Spaeth kinda remind me of that goofball O'Keefe at the Net54 dinner, rambling on and on about something that is old news.
Does any true card collector or dealer think that Dick is the only one who can do things to cards? I mean please we are talking about cardboard and paper here. Just like there are many folks that can restore a painting or old document there ar emany people who can restore cards. My question is why start off a topic on the main board that is only going to create drama? Ohhhhhh..... that's right i forgot that was the intent....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzzzzzz... .. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Reginald- this discussion is a little different. Yes, there have always been card doctors around, but they have operated a bit under the radar. Dick's product is bringing card doctoring into the mainstream. Now every collector can buy a bottle and remove creases from their own cards. It legitimizes the process a little too much for my taste.
|
#11
|
||||
|
||||
When you purchase a high grade pre-war card, part of your expectation should be that that card may have been "improved" at some point in its 100 year life. If you are purchasing these with an expectation that they have only stayed the same or gotten worse over the years, then you are just being unrealistic.
Whether it is ethical is sort of besides the point. It is unethical to do illegal downloads, but MP3 technology and "free music" changed the game. People will always collect baseball cards, but the expectation of the history of their cards may change. And that may have a dramatic effect on the market. As I have said on here a zillion times -- if you are buying PSA 8 T206 cards, then you have a really good chance of owning an improved-upon card. If you care about that then you're spending your money in the wrong place.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Lol....
Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.
Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
My 2 cents.
Altering cards for the express purpose of trying to submit them for grading to sell for a higher price is fraud, pure and simple. Yes, I wish the grading companies were better at detecting it, but I blame the scum that do it more than I'll blame the TPG.
I don't have a problem with properly disclosed altered cards, akin to restoration work that is done in the comic book field. I don't know how many I would buy personally, but as long as the work done on the card is properly disclosed, then it's not a big deal. Quote:
|
#17
|
||||
|
||||
I think...
...it will affect the Minty-mint collectors that are really concerned about population reports, but if that's not what you collect then it really shouldn't matter. This kind of thing would drive Jim Crandall mad. The high grade collectors are banking on a small universe of high grade cards. This technique expands that universe. It will likely have the effect of turning high grade collectors off to cards. But hopefully it will not affect the "arm pit" collectors one iota.
Given how many cards he has done, it is better at this point to accept it as a fact in our hobby and build into your collecting philosophy that it is happening.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?
NO. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
W/Strip card? fell from hole in my NY tenement ceiling yesterday | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 11 | 12-17-2006 12:47 PM |
Ethical Question #549 | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 20 | 10-30-2006 06:52 AM |
A question regarding the Mastro trimmed card thread | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 42 | 10-02-2006 11:36 AM |
Graded Card Moral and Ethical Issue | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 53 | 09-25-2006 09:07 PM |
I realize that our opinions may differ regarding what constitutes a baseball card | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 4 | 09-10-2006 01:42 PM |