Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

A current poster on our board who is very good at advertising his services, but really adds nothing else to the overall conversation of the board related on the memorabilia side that he can improve cards and that the graders can't tell.

Here's an interview I found on the net: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...le/nerattowle/

So if someone can't tell if he's removed a crease, indentation, ink, glue, et cetera does it matter? Do you want to know if your PSA 8 has been "improved"?

Is this guy doing a service or a disservice to our hobby?

Hey Dan
I think we have to be more specific about what alterations/restorations/removals are being done. We have had this discussion only about a million times. Many of us don't mind taking something off of a card that wasn't originally meant to be there ie... pencil marks, glue (maybe), pen marks, paper scraps etc. Even soaking in water is more accepted than not, by many collectors. However, many of us also think that removing creases and other things isn't so good. My concern with the removal of creases is that it has been stated they can come back over time. I have never tried to remove a crease so I don't know. I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Dan
I think we have to be more specific about what alterations/restorations/removals are being done. We have had this discussion only about a million times. Many of us don't mind taking something off of a card that wasn't originally meant to be there ie... pencil marks, glue (maybe), pen marks, paper scraps etc. Even soaking in water is more accepted than not, by many collectors. However, many of us also think that removing creases and other things isn't so good. My concern with the removal of creases is that it has been stated they can come back over time. I have never tried to remove a crease so I don't know. I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common.

I know we've had the discussion a million times, but I hadn't realized we had an actual card doctor posting to the board until today. I'd also like to hear from the Net54ers he mentions in the interview about what kind of work he did for them and what they did with the cards after he worked on them. It is a bit alarming to me that Dick says he doesn't care what happens to the cards after they leave his hands.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Removing creases for a dealer so he can sell it for a much higher price is aiding and abetting a fraud, plain and simple.

[slidekellyslide]

Boy would I love to see Dick's client list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Boy would I love to see Dick's client list.

No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion Barry we are already there -- it's anybody's guess whether a graded card has been altered in some way, and the more it's worth, the more likely the answer is yes.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs.

Brings up an interesting question that I've asked before (without an answer of course)....why did the owner of GAI submit his Mantle card to SGC hoping to have the indentation removed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Brings up an interesting question that I've asked before (without an answer of course)....why did the owner of GAI submit his Mantle card to SGC hoping to have the indentation removed?

As we say in the law sometimes, the thing speaks for itself.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs.

But, we do, often, know who the really great guys are!

[barrysloate]

The standard answer for whether altering a card is ethical is always the same: if it is disclosed then there is nothing wrong with it. But we all know too well that if thousands of cards are to be treated with this formula, many of the procedures will not be disclosed. Perhaps even the majority won't.

Here is my read as it applies to the grading companies. There are two things that graders do that are an asset to the hobby:

1) They check a card for alterations, ostensibly making it safe for buyers to purchase it in a dangerous marketplace.
2) They grade cards, and I think we all agree that the value of any baseball card is predicated on the grade it receives, hopefully an accurate one.

If this new product is as successful as Dick says, here is what will happen:

1) The grading companies will no longer be able to tell with any accuracy whether or not a card has been tampered with since the alterations will be undetectable.
2) They will no longer be able to grade cards accurately since ones in Good and Very Good holders will be broken out, processed, and reappear as Excellent or EX-MT.

The result is that the assessment of any card will be less reliable than ever. Can anybody see this being a good thing (unless you are one who hopes for the demise of third party grading)?

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common.

Too easy so I will let this one go.

[Reginald Marsh]

Actually Bretta you and Spaeth kinda remind me of that goofball O'Keefe at the Net54 dinner, rambling on and on about something that is old news.

Does any true card collector or dealer think that Dick is the only one who can do things to cards? I mean please we are talking about cardboard and paper here. Just like there are many folks that can restore a painting or old document there ar emany people who can restore cards.

My question is why start off a topic on the main board that is only going to create drama? Ohhhhhh..... that's right i forgot that was the intent....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzzzzzz... ..

[barrysloate]

Reginald- this discussion is a little different. Yes, there have always been card doctors around, but they have operated a bit under the radar. Dick's product is bringing card doctoring into the mainstream. Now every collector can buy a bottle and remove creases from their own cards. It legitimizes the process a little too much for my taste.

[T206Collector]

When you purchase a high grade pre-war card, part of your expectation should be that that card may have been "improved" at some point in its 100 year life. If you are purchasing these with an expectation that they have only stayed the same or gotten worse over the years, then you are just being unrealistic.

Whether it is ethical is sort of besides the point. It is unethical to do illegal downloads, but MP3 technology and "free music" changed the game. People will always collect baseball cards, but the expectation of the history of their cards may change. And that may have a dramatic effect on the market.

As I have said on here a zillion times -- if you are buying PSA 8 T206 cards, then you have a really good chance of owning an improved-upon card. If you care about that then you're spending your money in the wrong place.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

cards may change. And that may have a dramatic effect on the market.

As I have said on here a zillion times -- if you are buying PSA 8 T206 cards, then you have a really good chance of owning an improved-upon card. If you care about that then you're spending your money in the wrong place.

I agree, but I am not sure that excuses the grading companies for misrepresenting that the cards are original, or the card doctors/dealers for perpretrating fraud.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree, but I am not sure that excuses the grading companies for misrepresenting that the cards are original, or the card doctors/dealers for perpretrating fraud.

You're holding the grading companies to a standard that is impossible to keep or police. I excuse the grading companies from detecting the undetectable.

As far as going after card doctors/dealers who perpetuate fraud -- be my guest. Line them up and shoot them. But don't think that addresses or solves your problem. The damage is already done -- the fraud already committed. There is reasonable doubt in every pre-war card. We ought to be coming to terms with these facts.

PSA 10s aren't as rare as we thought they were, but they're still relatively rare. There's only so much you can doctor a card. We just need to be building certain expectations into our card collections.

Threads like this show that there are still a lot of surprised and disappointed people in our hobby. As long as that's true then card values will be artificially inflated by these unreasonable expectations.

We need to move as a collective to reasonable expectations. And we've had these changes in our hobby before. The advent of grading changed the definition of mint. Is this really any different?

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Reginald- this discussion is a little different. Yes, there have always been card doctors around, but they have operated a bit under the radar. Dick's product is bringing card doctoring into the mainstream. Now every collector can buy a bottle and remove creases from their own cards. It legitimizes the process a little too much for my taste.

Please stop the madness, I sell nothing, never had, never will-I simple remove garbage on cards-- glue, paper, wrinkles- a crease will remain while the paper is broken- tape, contact cement-- that is all.. Please--THERE IS NO BOTTLE---STOP THE MADNESS: I DON'T DO INK PERIOD . I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 15 YEARS WITH MOSTLY PEOPLE LOOKING TO HAVE CRAP REMOVED-

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

I DON'T DO INK PERIOD . -

HUH?
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

HUH?
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.

.

Peter, thank you for the chance to respond just because I have a process, it does not mean I use this. I removed the fountian pen ink, however I decided I don't want to do ink, and I never did. The test was on this ink- it passed- The two cards that were done were test card- zero value- however again, my choice was not to do and I don't. thank you again

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Actually Bretta you and Spaeth kinda remind me of that goofball O'Keefe at the Net54 dinner, rambling on and on about something that is old news.

Does any true card collector or dealer think that Dick is the only one who can do things to cards? I mean please we are talking about cardboard and paper here. Just like there are many folks that can restore a painting or old document there ar emany people who can restore cards.

My question is why start off a topic on the main board that is only going to create drama? Ohhhhhh..... that's right i forgot that was the intent....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzzzzzz... ..

Great, you don't like the subject? Don't read it....and I certainly hope you weren't as rude at the Net54 dinner as you are in this forum.

[benjulmag]

Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.

Not sure we will get there. I think the majority of people are trusting and take the grades at face value.

[Reginald Marsh]

Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.

Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Reginald Marsh

Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.

Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

1) referring to me by my last name and comparing me to a "goofball" I consider to be rude. This is not the first instance where I've found you to be rude.

2) for one who abhors the "Drama" I've noticed you always make sure you get a shot in in any thread that is "Dramatic".

3) just because I am a moderator does not mean I can not bring up controversial subjects.

Carry on.

[FrankWakefield]

I see nothing wrong with soaking a T206 to get paste and scrapbook off of the card.

And when I read this thread it makes me think there are folks out there who think their slabbed cards have never been soaked... And are afraid that folks might start soaking cards then sending them in for grading.

I'm glad I collect cards, and not slabs.

[Reginald Marsh]

Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

[onlychild]

there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

As Leon said, those type of questions have been brought up a million times.

I wrote that section some time ago and trust me, the questioning has been relentless...it's par for the course. There are plenty of mixed feelings about soaking and opinions differ.

Where the line is drawn in the sand for alterations is up to each individual collector. As an example, my opinion is that if a cleaning or any other type of alteration can be detected...it's been doctored. Others would argue that point.

Kevin

[Rickyy]

If the improvements are made to a card without disclosure and submitted for grading and gets a higher grade than it should be in its original state (and without a qualifer), it makes all the legitimate non altered graded cards the same as altered non detected graded cards..so how does that make it ethical?


Ricky Yo