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#1
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I vote for Ozzie Smith.
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#2
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Bill Mazeroski, his OBP was .299, not even batting avg. If not for his historic HR he wouldn't be in.
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My website with current cards http://syckscards.weebly.com Always looking for 1938 Goudey's |
#3
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Agreed.
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#4
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Phil Rizzuto his offensive numbers are offensive
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Successful transactions with: Drumback, Mart8081, Obcmac, Tonyo, markf31, gnaz01, rainier2004, EASE, Bobsbats, Craig M, TistaT202, Seiklis, Kenny Cole, T's please, Vic, marcdelpercio, poorlydrawncat, brianp-beme, mybuddyinc, Glchen, chernieto , old-baseball , Donscards, Centauri, AddieJoss, T2069bk,206fix, joe v, smokelessjoe, eggoman, botn, canjond Looking for T205's or anything Babe Ruth...email or PM me if you have any to sell. Last edited by EvilKing00; 01-22-2014 at 08:28 AM. |
#5
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My two candidates are: Candy Cummings, who pitched a total of 6 years and was elected on the strength of the belief that he invented the curve ball which he probably did not. And... Ray Schalk, who has the lowest batting average of any position player in the HOF at .253, only had 6 seasons when he got as many as 100 hits, and IMHO was elected primarily because he was an honest player on the Black Sox of 1919. Certainly worthy of commendation but not a plaque in Cooperstown.
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#6
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Bobby Cox
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#7
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#8
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Agreed pretty terrible.
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Tackling the Monster T206 = 213/524 HOFs = 13/76 SLers = 33/48 Horizontals = 6/6 ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage. |
#9
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If you only look at his offensive numbers, he's not a sexy pick at first glance. But again, context. You have to consider the era Maz played in. Of all second basemen that had at least 500 hits, playing between 1940-1980, Mazerowski had the highest dWAR at 24.0. Nellie Fox was second at 20.8. No other second baseman in this entire four decade period had a 20 + dWAR. And only Roberto Alomar and Ryne Sandberg have had more Gold Gloves at second base than Mazerowski's 8.
Offense? Only Fox, Schoendienst and Joe Morgan had more hits by a second baseman than Mazerowski's 2016 in the aforementioned four decades. Only Bobby Doerr and Morgan had more RBI than Mazerowski's 853 as a second baseman. Now, he wasn't much of a power hitter, and didn't get on base at a great clip. But he was at least an average offensive second baseman, and a tremendous defensive second baseman. And he was a good enough second baseman to be named to seven All Star teams.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#10
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I say Andre Dawson, its a joke that he was elected.
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#11
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Tommy McCarthy
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Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 Last edited by howard38; 01-21-2014 at 09:10 PM. |
#12
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Ozzie Smith isn't the worst Cardinal in the HOF let alone the worst HOF'er. Chick Hafey and Jesse Haines are worse HOF'ers (and Cardinals).
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#13
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There are too many to just list 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Tiger collector Need: T204 McIntyre Monster Number 519/520 |
#14
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Jim Rice....a fantastic power hitter for a while....but not long enough.
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#15
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Chance?
Pedestrian numbers as a player. Successful, but rather brief tenure as a manager. On the Baseball Reference HOF monitor he doesn't even come close to the HOF standards. It had to be the poem, I suppose. These are the saddest of possible words: “Tinker to Evers to Chance.” Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds, Tinker and Evers and Chance. Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble, Making a Giant hit into a double – Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble: “Tinker to Evers to Chance.” Who would ever have elected Chance to Cooperstown if it wasn't for that gonfalon bubble?
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FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-24. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. Last edited by frankbmd; 01-24-2014 at 09:30 AM. |
#16
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#17
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George Kelly and Freddie Lindstrom were pretty awful!
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#18
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Between 1975 to 1986, only Mike Schmidt (440) and Dave Kingman (365) have more home runs than Rice's 350. During that span, nobody in baseball drove in more runs than Jim Rice's 1,276. Only Schmidt's .545 SLG was better than Jim Rice's .520 SLG in all of baseball. And Jim Rice had more hits, 2145, than any other player in baseball between 1975 and 1986. For a twelve year span, he was arguably the best offensive force in the game, or at the very least, on par with Mike Schmidt.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#19
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Good info! No doubt Rice was a force, for a period of time...I think ultimately he ended up hanging on too long and doing damage to his overall numbers...I'm also tainted as '86 was the year I really started watching baseball and from '86-'89 I swear all Rice did was ground into inning-ending double plays! |
#20
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 02-22-2014 at 11:51 AM. |
#21
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As much as I love their cards, Tinker, Evers, and Chance should not even be considered hofers. They were medicore players at best.
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#22
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Frank Chance is more than worthy in my opinion. I believe Chance is in as both a player and a manager. As a manager he finished nearly 300 games over .500, won 2 World Series and managed teams to 4 World Series appearances.
That's a HOFer to me without even taking into consideration his playing career. |
#23
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I agree with that.
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Tackling the Monster T206 = 213/524 HOFs = 13/76 SLers = 33/48 Horizontals = 6/6 ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage. |
#24
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Bill, I have 2 players that are more deserving than Maz and Rice. Whitaker and Richie Allen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Tiger collector Need: T204 McIntyre Monster Number 519/520 |
#25
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Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Black Ink Batting - 16 (143), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink Batting - 93 (253), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 90 (194), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 29 (364), Average HOFer ≈ 50 JAWS Third Base (48th), 37.5 career WAR/27.8 7yr-peak WAR/32.7 JAWS
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#26
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Black Ink Batting - 3 (532), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink Batting - 57 (443), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 56 (356), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 26 (428), Average HOFer ≈ 50 JAWS Third Base (70th), 28.4 career WAR/26.3 7yr-peak WAR/27.3 JAWS
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums |
#27
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That must be Lindstrom LOL, mine is Kell.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#28
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Yes I didn't want ruin your mystery.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums |
#29
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It's easy to look at Mazerowski's numbers in 2014, and not be impressed. But there just weren't that many great offensive second basemen between 1940 and 1980. The Jackie Robinsons, Nellie Foxes, Rod Carews and Joe Morgans were the exception, not the rule. Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby and Napolean Lajoie played before that era. Ryne Sandberg, Craig Biggio, Roberto Alomar and Jeff Kent were after. I agree with you on Lou Whitaker (Alan Trammell, too) and Dick Allen both. They deserve a serious second look.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#30
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I don't understand how anyone could possibly say Ozzie Smith is the worst HOF.
I guess having the #1 Defensive WAR doesn't count for anything? http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...f_career.shtml ...or being voted to 15 All Star Games in a 19 year career? ...or having won the most Gold Gloves (13) among short stops? ...2nd overall in Assits with 8375 (19 year career = yearly avg 441), second to Rabbit Maranville 8967 (23 year career = yearly avg 390). First in assists for SS ...1st Total Zone Runs as SS (239) Also with Jeter retiring this year I am constantly hearing that he is a first year HOF. Jeter WAR: 71.6 (88 overall) | JAWS: 56.9 (12 overall) O. Smith WAR: 76.5 (69 overall) | JAWS: 59.4 (8 overall) Offensively only O. Smith doesn't stack up to the competition (though he does rank 5th in SB among SS) but he is the BEST defensive SS in the history of the game. If you can't be the best in your defensive position in the game and still be in the HOF then that would be a shame.
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#31
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The Wizard of Oz wasn't an offensive force by any means. He had no power, though he did have a few good offensive seasons, even winning a Silver Slugger in 1987 when he hit .303 with 102 runs, 182 hits, 40 doubles and 43 stolen bases. He had a handful of other seasons where he was decent with the stick, hitting in the .280s and 290s. But it was his defense which made him a star, and one of my favorite players to watch when he played. Though the prevailing line of thinking might be that offense wins games more than defense, you can pitch around a hitter when they come up. A great defensive shortstop like Ozzie Smith is out there every day, sucking up everything that comes within 10 feet of them. Ozzie Smith was a black hole where doubles went to die. And he did just fine negating my Brewer bats that hit 216 home runs in the 1982 World Series. I liken the Wizard of Oz to another Cardinal who was a late bloomer with the stick, Yadier Molina. Look at what Yadi did in his first seven seasons in the Majors, and then look what he's done the last three: ![]() Yadi is the best catcher in baseball. Period. Sorry, Giants fans. I like Buster Posey a lot. But Yadi now offers comparable offense, and superior defense. If I were a manager, I'd run against Buster. There's not a chance in hell I'd run with Yadi Molina behind the plate. Will Molina make the Hall of Fame one day? He's going to be 32 this July, so he's still in his prime right now, and could have at least three or four more seasons behind the plate. He's had back to back top 4 MVP finishes, and has been awarded six straight Gold Gloves. Look for him to finish with 10 Gold Gloves, 2,000 + hits, and a couple World Series championships under his belt. If he gets another one or two of those, which I think he will, he's going to get an awful lot of credit for handling that pitching staff. Things like that factor into the minds of voters. So does throwing out 45% of would be base runners for your career. So, if Yadi does not continue hitting the way he has these last three seasons, and keeps playing great defense, he's basically Ozzie Smith behind the plate. I don't think Smith got the credit he deserved when he played. And I certainly don't think he's the worst Hall of Famer. Not by a long shot.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#32
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Bill, I find it interesting that Dwight Evans has an OPS .029 lower than Rice in the years selected as Rice's peak. Evans the far superior fielder and the guy no one mentions as a HoF candidate.
I think it's fair to consider numbers to an era, but it's not right to pick a range of years and say this guy had the most xxx. It's the same weak argument they make for Jack Morris. Most wins in the decade. Big deal! Of course they forget to mention he pitched on the winningest team of the decade. I don't have the time right now, but a stronger case can be made for Whitaker, Trammell, and Richie Allen than Jim Rice.
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Tiger collector Need: T204 McIntyre Monster Number 519/520 |
#33
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As far as your comment regarding numbers within an era, I understand where you're coming from, Brent, but here it's a little different. Wins are a team accomplishment. You can have a 4.00 ERA and still win 20 games if your offense comes through with a lot of run support, just like you can have a sub 3.00 ERA, and win nine games if your offense stinks (think Nolan Ryan in 1987. He went 8-16 though he led the NL in ERA, strikeouts, H/9 IP, K:BB ratio, K/9 IP). Batting average, home runs, and total bases, are really individual metrics. RBIs are, of course, not, as other guys have to be on base for you to to drive them in. But when you look at a wide range of statistics, Rice is either at the top, or very near the top, for a twenty year span. And while the supporting numbers I put out there for Rice are hardly definitive (I would really need to get into a year by year breakdown, because no matter where one draws the lines when sampling a large amount of data, players with different starts, peaks, and ends are not going to match up perfectly for comparative purposes), they are a good start. And his 162 game average for his career is pretty darned good. How many players in that era could say they averaged .300 with 30 HR and 110 + RBI every single year? Jim Rice is by no means the greatest slugger to ever play the game. I wouldn't put him in my top ten, and likely not in my top twenty. But he'd be up there. The man had some downright massive seasons, but the other ones were really good, too. Even when you examine a season like 1984, where he had a .791 OPS, he still drove in 122 runs. He's what I call sneaky good. Led his league in hits once, triples once, home runs three times, RBI twice, slugging twice, OPS once, and total bases four times. He certainly wasn't the fielder Evans was, that's for sure. When you have some time, make your argument for Whitaker, Trammell and Allen. I'd love to see your thoughts.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#34
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Hmm, not sure why there was a double post. My apologies, gang.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 02-27-2014 at 08:08 AM. |
#35
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There are a lot of "all-star" type players who were good, but not HOF-worthy, like Ron Santo.
Last edited by djson1; 03-07-2014 at 11:46 AM. |
#36
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I knew rizzuto would get in. the previous year the vets commite got 3 new members--reese, bill white and berra all rizzuto pals.
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#37
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I have to agree that Bulkeley is the worst choice. Second place would go to Tommy McCarthy. After that, it would be a tough race including guys like Jesse Haines, Eppa Rixey, Harry Hooper, Rick Ferrell, Bid McPhee, and Red Schoendienst. I've also heard plenty of criticism of Effa Manley's selection, but don't know enough about it to have a strong opinion.
I have to disagree on Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski. Both are regarded by many as the best defensive player at their position ever. They are similar to Brooks Robinson in this regard. |
#38
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In the early days of the Hall, there was virtually no threshold a person had to surpass to be elected. As a result, loads of people got in that probably shouldn't have. If there were a retroactive purge, I imagine a good 12-15 players would probably not make the cut based on just the 10-year active playing time requirement.
Something that stood out to me in all those BR comparison charts was why hasn't there been much talk about Cecil Cooper? He's right there in the thick of almost all of those lists amid 6 or 7 inductees. I have to think if he'd had some sort of last stretch media campaign like Dawson or Rice got, he'd be in. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him inducted by the veterans committee. |
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Coop was one of my favorite players as a kid. He could flat out rake, and he was a hell of a defensive first baseman.
The sad thing is Boston never really played him that much. It took his moving to Milwaukee to become a full time player...at age 27. He had a great 7 year prime. Between 1977 and 1983, his 162 game averages: .316 AVG, 99 runs, 206 hits, 40 doubles, 26 HR, 109 RBI. .858 OPS.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#40
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums |
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