1989 Fleer Bill Ripken White Box

[jacksoncoupage]

Anyone have photos of these?

Just reread my 1990 Gilkeson Guide and saw a xerox'd page of a write-up he did at the time which lists a "white box" version. Article is a poor quality xerox but he includes an image of what could be the white box version('h'). This led to me wondering why I have not seen or even heard much over the decades about this.

Do they exist? Are they likely aftermaket like the whiteout/scribbles?

[jacksoncoupage]

minuscule majuscule

[bnorth]

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Like you I remember the article on the white box but I have never actually seen one. What do you mean by aftermarket? I have never seen a whiteout that I believe someone didn't make at home but as far as I know all the scribble versions are 100% factory printed.

I am far from an 89 Fleer error/variation expert but I have owned a couple.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Like you I remember the article on the white box but I have never actually seen one. What do you mean by aftermarket? I have never seen a whiteout that I believe someone didn't make at home but as far as I know all the scribble versions are 100% factory printed.

I am far from an 89 Fleer error/variation expert but I have owned a couple.

It seems to me that the language used in describing various whiteout corrections, back then and now, refers to Fleer employees hand-editing the bat knobs on the production line. I've never held a whiteout variation but I've followed dialog about the Ripkens for a few decades. Its always been odd to me that nobody since the hyperfocus on this card of the last 20 years has ever written an in depth description of the whiteout area: ie, is it the same surface gloss/texture as the rest of the card. I'm sure you have seen all the strange and varying white shapes that have popped up on ebay over the years and they are hardly consistent. This leads me to believe that any "white" was applied to either fully printed FF or Box (or Scribble) versions, in the factory or otherwise.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

It seems to me that the language used in describing various whiteout corrections, back then and now, refers to Fleer employees hand-editing the bat knobs on the production line. I've never held a whiteout variation but I've followed dialog about the Ripkens for a few decades. Its always been odd to me that nobody since the hyperfocus on this card of the last 20 years has ever written an in depth description of the whiteout area: ie, is it the same surface gloss/texture as the rest of the card. I'm sure you have seen all the strange and varying white shapes that have popped up on ebay over the years and they are hardly consistent. This leads me to believe that any "white" was applied to either fully printed FF or Box (or Scribble) versions, in the factory or otherwise.

Most of them are BB cards because they are cheaper for the guy at home making them. If I can hold it in hand I can pretty much tell you how the person made them. I have a stack of them made many different ways I have purchased over the years and I highly doubt a single one left Fleer that way.

I have seen unopened packs with even the silly rare versions showing. I have never seen anything with a whiteout version showing. I have opened a ton of 89 Fleer and know many others who have also opened many many cases of it and nobody I know has ever personally found one.

I do have one real whiteout story but it was really whiteout over a FF version. My younger brother pulled it out of a pack when we opened some wax boxes back in the day. I seen him pull it and scratch the whiteout off the card. Other than that I pretty much call BS on all whiteouts.

All the scribble versions can easily be explained with how printing works

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Most of them are BB cards because they are cheaper for the guy at home making them. If I can hold it in hand I can pretty much tell you how the person made them. I have a stack of them made many different ways I have purchased over the years and I highly doubt a single one left Fleer that way.

I have seen unopened packs with even the silly rare versions showing. I have never seen anything with a whiteout version showing. I have opened a ton of 89 Fleer and know many others who have also opened many many cases of it and nobody I know has ever personally found one.

I do have one real whiteout story but it was really whiteout over a FF version. My younger brother pulled it out of a pack when we opened some wax boxes back in the day. I seen him pull it and scratch the whiteout off the card. Other than that I pretty much call BS on all whiteouts.

All the scribble versions can easily be explained with how printing works

I guess this is what confuses me still. Aside from the fact that whiteout variations can be faked easily, are the ones pulled from packs, like the one your younger brother pulled, other versions that Fleer workers applied whiteout or other substance over the bat knob - OR - are some white versions printed on the card (scribble for example)? Or is it a mix of both? Most hobby write-ups at the time refer to it as something Fleer's people did in the factory, which seems very odd to me and something PSA would never slab.

More importantly, I am very interested in what Gilkeson was referring to as a 'white box' version, which he describes in the article as the same as the black box version but white. I have yet to see a copy of this offered for sale and have not seen it mentioned outside his write-up ca. 1989.

[jp1216]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Leonard Helicher - one of the OG FF dealers. Sadly passed in early 2020. He always said - ALL Whiteout cards (not White Scribbles) are FAKE. He had direct links inside Fleer and obtained lots of stuff smuggled out by employees.

I obtained many rare cards from Lenny!

I'm still amazed how many people buy these fake/altered cards every week. Hundreds of dollars each. Too many scammers taking a $1 Black Box version and printing money five minutes later. Graded/Authentic or not - they are Post Production creations! Hand altered after printing. Smooth surface or not. Consistent shine/gloss or not. They were likely never printed this way.

I always consider the White Scribble the true 'whited out' card. Legit factory printed version.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by jp1216

Leonard Helicher - one of the OG FF dealers. Sadly passed in early 2020. He always said - ALL Whiteout cards (not White Scribbles) are FAKE. He had direct links inside Fleer and obtained lots of stuff smuggled out by employees.

I obtained many rare cards from Lenny!

I'm still amazed how many people buy these fake/altered cards every week. Hundreds of dollars each. Too many scammers taking a $1 Black Box version and printing money five minutes later. Graded/Authentic or not - they are Post Production creations! Hand altered after printing. Smooth surface or not. Consistent shine/gloss or not. They were likely never printed this way.

I always consider the White Scribble the true 'whited out' card. Legit factory printed version.

So this is very helpful. There is an obvious distinction between "white scribble' and 'whiteout,' correct? Most examples of a white scribble do appear to be printed on the card which makes sense because there doesnt seem to be variance in the remaining bits of the knob words. Done by hand would require a ton of effort to match a real example.

If I understand correctly, whiteouts are all human made, either via Fleer employees in 1989 or people attempting to trick buyers. This my next question, why would PSA slab a card with an aberrant surface? Can't imagine they'd miss the texture difference.

Lastly, so in your collecting history, have you ever encountered what Gilkeson describes in a white box "nearly identical to the black box" version? I will reread this guide every few years and almost always find something new to look into, in this case, I had never heard of (or seen) a white box version of this card.

[jp1216]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

So this is very helpful. There is an obvious distinction between "white scribble' and 'whiteout,' correct? Most examples of a white scribble do appear to be printed on the card which makes sense because there doesnt seem to be variance in the remaining bits of the knob words. Done by hand would require a ton of effort to match a real example.

Most (but not all Whiteouts are real cards with altered surfaces). There are fake Whiteout cards too. Bogus cheap reprint fakes. White Scribbles also have fake/bogus examples floating around out there. I've seen them sell for $300! Sad.

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

If I understand correctly, whiteouts are all human made, either via Fleer employees in 1989 or people attempting to trick buyers. This my next question, why would PSA slab a card with an aberrant surface? Can't imagine they'd miss the texture difference.

You'd have to ask the 'experts'. Again, the texture/surface can be made to look real in 5 minutes. I'm sure practice makes perfect...

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Lastly, so in your collecting history, have you ever encountered what Gilkeson describes in a white box "nearly identical to the black box" version? I will reread this guide every few years and almost always find something new to look into, in this case, I had never heard of (or seen) a white box version of this card.

I do have a couple cards that look close to Gilkeson's example. But I can also make one very easily. I try not to post these weird oddballs too much. It can lead to numerous fakes popping up overnight.

[golfr19]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Like you I remember the article on the white box but I have never actually seen one. What do you mean by aftermarket? I have never seen a whiteout that I believe someone didn't make at home but as far as I know all the scribble versions are 100% factory printed.

I am far from an 89 Fleer error/variation expert but I have owned a couple.

I know the chances are super small, and I just joined this community, but I've been searching for a PSA 10 whited out (I know they may not be real...might be all altered, etc.,). If you have any leads or know of anyone who might be willing to part with one, let me know. Worth a shot! Thanks all.

[jp1216]

Welcome to Net54. Pretty sure you emailed me last week as well. My opinions on 'Whiteout' (not White Scribble) cards is well known. That being said - PSA 10 fake graded cards do exist and do pop up on eBay etc from time to time. Your best bet is to watch eBay for a few months.
Spend your money on real cards - but I wish I had a 10 to part will.....
Happy Hunting!