Hobby etiquette. Where has it gone?

[premiercardcollectors]

Short vent. I have been trading cards in the Hobby since I was just 8 years old in the late 70's. It used to be a smaller world of buyers and a much smaller world of sellers for pre-war cards. I used to be mostly just a buyer and now I am just as much a seller as a buyer but always try and treat buyers as I would wanted to be treated when I am buying cards. I always put myself i their shoes.

When I reach out to a seller to find out what I can buy a certain card by making an offer or asking for their best fair price I try and do so with COURTESY and with words not just "$xxxx?" Or "I'll offer $xxxxx." (70% of comps). When a buyer reaches out to me, I try and counter at a fair price and give some data as to why the price is fair.

Lately, I am finding more an more that buyers will ask for better scans or your best price and I am always quick to reply with what they want but then they will just GHOST. Not even a "Thank you for the offer but it doesn't work for me." or "Thank you for your time..." etc.

Basic COURTESY and TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WISH TO BE TREATED should be thought of when dealing with other people in the hobby. If you are a buyer or a seller and you engage another member on the forum please have the courtesy to reply when they give you an offer or vice versa. It is SIMPLE human kindness and it goes a long way.

Obviously, 90% of people are awesome on here. If this applies to you....Be better.

[Leon]

I agree, Geoff.
I think it goes with the territory of how the hobby has gone, especially the younger generations. It's almost always about the quick flip for money and much less about collecting. I might be wrong but the guys in it only for the money are mostly the culprits. It's just a business to them.


.

[Beercan collector]

If the first thing they ask is your best price I would just ghost them right off the bat, they are trolling, if someone’s truly interested they know what they want to pay and they can make an offer - You already set a price it’s their turn

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

If the first thing they ask is your best price I would just ghost them right off the bat, they are trolling, if someone’s truly interested they know what they want to pay and they can make an offer - You already set a price it’s their turn

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[refz]

I find myself in this situation a lot as a buyer. If I engage a seller usually on here or the FB groups and request better pics or ask a question that extends the transaction a little bit, but ultimately back out for whatever reason I always say thank you for the pics or whatever it is I requested. For the simple reason I may circle back and end up buying at a later time. It’s a small world here in our hobby.

I typically don’t buy much on eBay & keep it under two fiddy so I don’t die in authentication process. Plus there’s not a whole ton of negotiations in that small bracket I work in.

Danny

[ullmandds]

this is the way the world has become...not just the hobby.

[HercDriver]

I've gotten away from making offers anymore. It always seems like a get a diatribe back about how much they have into the card, or something like that, even with solid VCP comps to back up the offer. I could care less what you have into it...your poor decision is not mine to fix. When somebody prices a card now and says they are taking offers, I just wait for them to cut the price instead, until it reaches my would-be offer.

[jchcollins]

Related, but I am often amused even if just showing off cards on social media - how quickly I get some version of "HOWMUCH" thrown out in a comment. It's so rude.

No, mouth breathers - not everything you see a picture of is always for sale, but thank you for playing.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by premiercardcollectors

Short vent. I have been trading cards in the Hobby since I was just 8 years old in the late 70's. It used to be a smaller world of buyers and a much smaller world of sellers for pre-war cards. I used to be mostly just a buyer and now I am just as much a seller as a buyer but always try and treat buyers as I would wanted to be treated when I am buying cards. I always put myself i their shoes.

When I reach out to a seller to find out what I can buy a certain card by making an offer or asking for their best fair price I try and do so with COURTESY and with words not just "$xxxx?" Or "I'll offer $xxxxx." (70% of comps). When a buyer reaches out to me, I try and counter at a fair price and give some data as to why the price is fair.

Lately, I am finding more an more that buyers will ask for better scans or your best price and I am always quick to reply with what they want but then they will just GHOST. Not even a "Thank you for the offer but it doesn't work for me." or "Thank you for your time..." etc.

Basic COURTESY and TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WISH TO BE TREATED should be thought of when dealing with other people in the hobby. If you are a buyer or a seller and you engage another member on the forum please have the courtesy to reply when they give you an offer or vice versa. It is SIMPLE human kindness and it goes a long way.

Obviously, 90% of people are awesome on here. If this applies to you....Be better.

Just my opinion but you are the worst lowballer on this site. I am not surprised at all that you get ghosted.

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[premiercardcollectors]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Just my opinion but you are the worst lowballer on this site. I am not surprised at all that you get ghosted.

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Hey Al-

Well I certainly didn't post this to be trolled and I wouldn't be rude and call someone out like that on the forum but now that you brought it up, let's shed light on the specific interaction.

I had a bunch of worch cigars listed and you proposed a trade of some 50's and 60s old grade cards that honestly, I really wasn't interested in. You wanted full blown retail for your cards and in comparison wanted to assess mine at about 70% of value. Your statement was "that's the worst trade offer that I have ever received."
Well, I didn't propose a trade...You did. I posted my cards to sell not trade and sold all but one.

I have literally had ONE deal interaction with you and I save all of my PMs so am happy to post them.

I have probably bought almost 500 cards off of this site over the past year and I strive to be fair. This was simply meant to be a dialogue about courtesy and kindness in communication and you just FAILED the test.

Maybe look in the mirror before attacking a fellow member of the forum. I don't take failed trades PERSONALLY as they happen and I certainly wouldn't treat a fellow forum member this way over a failed trade.

Finally, I see that you live in Chicago. I will be at the Sports Spectacular next month in Rosemont. Would love to buy you a beer or a coffee and meet you face to face. With a little effort, I think you and I could be friends as obviously we both share the same passion for cardboard and have both likely spent a good chunk of our kids' inheritance on it.

Thank you

[BioCRN]

I would suggest doing it for some clarification, but I also would suggest not doing it because it's tiring to sit through...

...but if you look at videos from other "flipping" and profit-taking hobby endeavors that are similar...specifically jumping to mind, the sneaker community...some of this stuff becomes more clear.

The sellers are jerks. The buyers are jerks. Everyone is acting like they're being robbed half the time and wasting their time the other half...

Transactions are quick, emotionless, and painless...or quick, mean, and dismissive. Buyers and sellers act like they have limited time to deal with anyone and they act like everyone is trying to dupe them.

Some of it is fake and created for views, but it's led to influencing the culture.

Just like it's always been in the card hobby, some people are only here to flip and make money. Fine...but some of the people in the hobby are adjacent to or coming from more "hostile" parts of the flipping world.

[premiercardcollectors]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

I would suggest doing it for some clarification, but I also would suggest not doing it because it's tiring to sit through...

...but if you look at videos from other "flipping" and profit-taking hobby endeavors that are similar...specifically jumping to mind, the sneaker community...some of this stuff becomes more clear.

The sellers are jerks. The buyers are jerks. Everyone is acting like they're being robbed half the time and wasting their time the other half...

Transactions are quick, emotionless, and painless...or quick, mean, and dismissive. Buyers and sellers act like they have limited time to deal with anyone and they act like everyone is trying to dupe them.

Some of it is fake and created for views, but it's led to influencing the culture.

Just like it's always been in the card hobby, some people are only here to flip and make money. Fine...but some of the people in the hobby are adjacent to or coming from more "hostile" parts of the flipping world.

Well said.

[OhioLawyerF5]

It's not about the hobby. It's just the direction our modern society has gone. And it's not about a lack of ettiquatte or decency. Because as the 21st century has unfolded, and the world has become more digital with vastly more access to communication platforms, the short-form communication you bemoan has become normal. So what was considered poor etiguette to us is considered appropriate ettiguette to the current generation. They are actually acting appropriately under the norms of the society they were raised in. So it's hard to hold it against them that they don't conform to our norms, because that is a society they have never lived in. We can accept that things change and adapt, or we can shake our fists at the clouds. The latter just makes us miserable. Just understand, when they talk/text/message that way, it is not their intent to be rude. It's literally how they have been taught to communicate. It's no different than a person from a culture who requires you to take your shoes off when you enter a house. If you have never heard that etiquette, you might unkowingly break it. Does that make you a bad person? Or should the person who holds to that etiquette be patient and understanding as both of you try to adapt to one another?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by premiercardcollectors

Hey Al-

Well I certainly didn't post this to be trolled and I wouldn't be rude and call someone out like that on the forum but now that you brought it up, let's shed light on the specific interaction.

I had a bunch of worch cigars listed and you proposed a trade of some 50's and 60s old grade cards that honestly, I really wasn't interested in. You wanted full blown retail for your cards and in comparison wanted to assess mine at about 70% of value. Your statement was "that's the worst trade offer that I have ever received."
Well, I didn't propose a trade...You did. I posted my cards to sell not trade and sold all but one.

I have literally had ONE deal interaction with you and I save all of my PMs so am happy to post them.

I have probably bought almost 500 cards off of this site over the past year and I strive to be fair. This was simply meant to be a dialogue about courtesy and kindness in communication and you just FAILED the test.

Maybe look in the mirror before attacking a fellow member of the forum. I don't take failed trades PERSONALLY as they happen and I certainly wouldn't treat a fellow forum member this way over a failed trade.

Finally, I see that you live in Chicago. I will be at the Sports Spectacular next month in Rosemont. Would love to buy you a beer or a coffee and meet you face to face. With a little effort, I think you and I could be friends as obviously we both share the same passion for cardboard and have both likely spent a good chunk of our kids' inheritance on it.

Thank you

I'm not looking to debate the details here, but I stand by my statement. Go back and look at your emails. You are leaving out the first half of our conversation.

I always show up for free beer. Drop me a note and let me know when you're in town.

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[CardPadre]

Seems like if one is having so many negative experiences as to warrant the creation of a thread, at least part of it can be attributed to their own actions or style of conduct in the hobby.

Reminds me of the guy who was ranting about having 60 sales canceled by the ebay authenticity guarantee and thinks he is absoloutely not any part of the problem.

[perezfan]

I think the difference between the terse younger generations with their poor communication skills and the older generations who exhibit courtesy and empathy is the advent of cell phones, video gaming and social media.

They text rather than talk, they shorten commonly used words into abbreviations, and they won't even answer the phone if they don't recognize the caller. Part of the reason is that life is faster-paced today, so multi-tasking has become a necessity. I never even heard the term "multi-tasking" until the early 2000s, come to think of it.

I do agree there is a bigger divide between the generations today than ever before. But that's likely because (for the first time in our history) cell phones and social media were part of their up-bringing and childhood... making it more difficult for older people with good manners to relate to them.

[JJ McGraw]

Geoff, it has always been a pleasure to deal with you. And there is nothing wrong with bartering on the price, that’s been a part of collecting since time began….as others have said, be respectful, maybe even explain why you can only pay X for the card to the dealer ( again, explain, not say , “ it’s a piece of s- - t” ) and let them decide, because, at the end of the day, it’s still their card and apparently , you wanted it for some reason. I always thank the seller, even if they aren’t the friendliest on their end. They took the time to respond regardless of whether I like the response or not. Those sellers that just say a flat , curt “ I don’t deal” “ my price is firm” , great. I like dealing with folks and when I sell a card, I pay forward the favor of a seller that gave me a break in the price. For those that don’t want to deal with you, maybe don’t go back to them…….why go thru that frustration. There are PLENTY of righteous sellers ( tons here) who will deal with you, so let the “ I don’t deal” guy sit on that card. Life’s too short and there are too many out there who literally want to sell their cards at a reasonable price…..and Geoff, you are certainly one of the latter, always enjoy dealing with you.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I think the difference between the terse younger generations with their poor communication skills and the older generations who exhibit courtesy and empathy is the advent of cell phones, video gaming and social media.

They text rather than talk, they shorten commonly used words into abbreviations, and they won't even answer the phone if they don't recognize the caller. Part of the reason is that life is faster-paced today, so multi-tasking has become a necessity. I never even heard the term "multi-tasking" until the early 2000s, come to think of it.

I do agree there is a bigger divide between the generations today than ever before. But that's likely because (for the first time in our history) cell phones and social media were part of their up-bringing and childhood... making it more difficult for older people with good manners to relate to them.

I agree that technology has played a part but I think the biggest change is down to parents. The behavior of some children is a by-product of the parents and how the raise their children. When I was a boy my parents made me wait my turn. They didn't allow me to talk back to adults, etc. I'm guessing that most of us grew up with the same experience.

In the 1960s and 1970s we were able to play outside and have independence. We could ride off on our bikes and meet our friends. So long as we were back by supper, everything was OK. In every decade since, the tolerance for risk has gone down. It's gotten to the point where many parents don't let their kids play outside or they insist the kids can be tracked on their mobile phone 24 hours a day.

There are parents who won't let little Johnny or little Jane lose out on anything. They step in to ensure there's no risk of a bad outcome.

As a result there are kids out there who have grown up not able to assess risk, deal with losing. They are left with a complete sense of entitlement. Voila....bold, brash kids and teenagers who don't respect any authority that doesn't give them what they want.

[ChasingPaper]

I sell rare reptiles and amphibians (as a side hustle as my other hobby) and its the exact same. I would say 95% of people who inquire about pricing, ask questions, etc. never even respond. Not even a thumbs up or a thank you (and it shows when theyve read the messages) even when I take my time to give them more information than I need to. I dont get it.

[JollyElm]

Since it's Halloween, I'll offer this: An educated seller is a buyer's worst nightmare.

[ASF123]

“I sell rare reptiles and amphibians”

As one does.

[BioCRN]

The 2024 Allen and Ginter "Oregon Zoo X-RAYD" set has a few cool looking reptile cards, fwiw.

They're thankfully not rare or expensive, but they're really unique cards that present like they should be more of a rare insert.

[Leon]

I love reptiles. When I was a kid I volunteered at the Houston Zoo, in the reptile department. That was way cool....

My opinion is it is the internets fault society is the way it is. The instant, multiple-gratifcation, society.

Originally Posted by ChasingPaper

I sell rare reptiles and amphibians (as a side hustle as my other hobby) and its the exact same. I would say 95% of people who inquire about pricing, ask questions, etc. never even respond. Not even a thumbs up or a thank you (and it shows when theyve read the messages) even when I take my time to give them more information than I need to. I dont get it.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by ChasingPaper

I sell rare reptiles and amphibians (as a side hustle as my other hobby) and its the exact same. I would say 95% of people who inquire about pricing, ask questions, etc. never even respond. Not even a thumbs up or a thank you (and it shows when theyve read the messages) even when I take my time to give them more information than I need to. I dont get it.

Got any Inland Taipans?

[GeoPoto]

"When I asked him about it, he stated "Well, I didn't want to squeeze you on price, so I just sent it to the auction house to sell". Sigh, no, you wanted to maximize all the profit and not give me the opportunity to buy."

My perspective on this is that for many/most pre-war cards, it is simply not possible to predict what will happen at auction. This makes it very hard to "negotiate" a price that makes both sides comfortable. The 22 percent vig is worth it to convince both parties that the deal is fair. And should avoid regrets. Trading is safer when feasible because it requires both sides to forego the opportunity to benefit from catching two motivated bidders in the same auction.

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[GeoPoto]

"Sounds like he thought he would get more money by going the AH route."

What is wrong with getting more money?

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[raulus]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

"Sounds like he thought he would get more money by going the AH route."

What is wrong with getting more money?

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Except that he got significantly less by going the AH route…

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by raulus

Except that he got significantly less by going the AH route…

There's a non-zero amount of poetic justice in that particular outcome.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There's a non-zero amount of poetic justice in that particular outcome.

Was it poetic justice? Or a small price to pay to not have to negotiate with someone who lets baseball cards come between friends? I suspect the seller exercised some wisdom in bypassing that fun little task.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Was it poetic justice? Or a small price to pay to not have to negotiate with someone who lets baseball cards come between friends? I suspect the seller exercised some wisdom in bypassing that fun little task.

From my perspective, yes. The seller knew there was someone very interested in their card. They sent it to an AH and chose not to tell a prospective buyer the card had become available. As a direct result of this, the seller got less money.

Forget friendships. The seller could have made more money with a little courtesy. Whatever their motivation, they chose poorly and it cost them.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Was it poetic justice? Or a small price to pay to not have to negotiate with someone who lets baseball cards come between friends? I suspect the seller exercised some wisdom in bypassing that fun little task.

To be clear, I’m only suggesting the seller should have said something while the auction was live. Obviously, this is much different than one-to-one negotiations.

[parkplace33]

Since the holiday season is coming, I encourage members to read A Christmas Carol. I think there are lessons that could be learned for several members:

Kindness and love are more valuable than money: The pursuit of wealth can lead to isolation and unhappiness, while generosity and love for others bring true joy

[The Detroit Collector]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

"Sounds like he thought he would get more money by going the AH route."

What is wrong with getting more money?

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There's nothing wrong, but if I had a friend that had a card I really wanted, I would make a fair offer, maybe even higher depending on how bad I wanted the card.

OP says he would have spent 25% more for what it went for.

You can go the AH route, there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is the friend didnt even mention he was selling the card. He didnt even start a potential pricing discussion with the friend.

[GeoPoto]

"Except that he got significantly less by going the AH route…"

My problem with this whole conversation is that it seems predicated on the notion that it should be easy to agree on a valuation that is within the 22 percent BP. For most pre-war cards that just is not true. Cards that rarely appear could go anywhere at auction and cards that do appear fairly often vary substantially based on eye appeal, which is inherently subjective. I regularly sell pre-war cards at auction that go for two or three times (and sometimes half) what I expect.

I realize the OP says he would have paid more, but that is all in hindsight. When the card was consigned, the seller could well have expected it to fetch much more than it did. Why the seller didn't alert the OP to the auction is a mystery that may be explained best by his comments on this post, as our friend from Ohio has summarized.

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[Yoda]

If you don't have any friends, it's not a problem.

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Yoda

If you don't have any friends, it's not a problem.

You cant argue with this logic. Also doesnt hurt to have cards that nobody else wants.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Section103

You cant argue with this logic. Also doesnt hurt to have cards that nobody else wants.

Where did all my collecting friends go when I was trying to unload these?


Brian