1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth in Heritage

[raulus]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

A question regarding the multi-million dollar loss on that card, but would a seller be able to take out a pre-auction insurance policy IN CASE it didn't sell for the amount he was looking for?
To indemnify him from having to take an Olympic-pool sized bath??

Does anyone offer insurance policies like this? I realize that just about anything can be insured, but I suspect finding someone to cover this risk would be difficult and/or incredibly expensive.

And if you were really that worried about losing your shirt, then why wouldn’t you just put a reserve on the listing, which I’m pretty sure is free?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Mike, in my experience, expensive cards are treated no different then less expensive cards. I don’t know the seller of the BN Ruth or the facts of this consignment, but I assume it’s a real sale; indeed, if I was the buyer, I would insist it!!

Here is what I think - I think the buyer bought this two years ago for around $7.5mm. I think he decided to sell it and got his ass handed to him.no conspiracies or back room deals.

If you are a big enough boy to plunk down $7.5mm on a card then you gotta be a big enough boy to lose your lunch on a $7.5mm card. Plain and simple.

Agree with most of this here but I think we all know that a consignor and the consignment of a multi-million dollar card or collection is going to be handled and treated entirely differently than a consignor and the consignment of a $1500 card or collection.

As for this Heritage sale, someone from Heritage did post earlier in this thread that the card has no reserve and would be sold but if you read Heritages' rules, they and the consignor can bid on their own consignments.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

After this, I don’t think an example of that card, in either color or back, will be up for auction again for a very long time.

Perhaps, but only because the card is so darned rare, not because the owner of this one apparently took such a hit. And maybe this price is more representative of today's market than the previous one, haven't there been some pullbacks over the last several years? At any rate, that's still life-changing money for a lot of people, and if you're sitting there with one of these you picked up for a pittance not that long ago, or you found grandpa's, how long are you going to wait to cash in on this unexpected bonanza: five years? ten years? Why would you?

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by raulus

Does anyone offer insurance policies like this? I realize that just about anything can be insured, but I suspect finding someone to cover this risk would be difficult and/or incredibly expensive.

Even if the policy cost a couple million dollars, it would've led to him losing less money. Yowza!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Perhaps, but only because the card is so darned rare, not because the owner of this one apparently took such a hit. And maybe this price is more representative of today's market than the previous one, haven't there been some pullbacks over the last several years? At any rate, that's still life-changing money for a lot of people, and if you're sitting there with one of these you picked up for a pittance not that long ago, or you found grandpa's, how long are you going to wait to cash in on this unexpected bonanza: five years? ten years? Why would you?

Maybe they figure it will keep going up.

Or maybe they want to move to a low tax location first.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Eric72

1952 Topps Andy Pafko. Same as with the Skywalker card, condition matters quite a bit.

Interesting aside: Many collectors (myself included) would consider a card from 1977 to be somewhat new; however, the Star Wars card is roughly 2/3 the age of the '52 Pafko.

At least Pafko was a solid ballplayer in his own right though. What was Skywalker's batting average?

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A whole lotta 10s would not get a 10 again were one to crack out and resubmit, whether deserving or not. This is the world of the flip being the commodity.

I get the general consensus on grading yesterday vs grading today, but in this thread the recently graded Ruth is a strongly questionable "3" with the 2 major creases, the nearly non-existent corners, and the major edge damage (front and back).

Someone else posted an oldschool graded SGC "3" of the exact card in this thread that blows away the modern graded one.

It's a casual consensus that oldschool grading is more lenient than modern grading, but it's still far from being something you can take for granted.

Most of the cards I'm still out there hunting are mostly commons, even if some are rare, and I've passed on more than a few in PSA/SGC 2-4 condition graded modern because they look like ass compared to the number slapped on the slab. That's even taking in account the differences in grading for lower-graded stuff between the two companies (such as marks on a card can still get a SGC 2 - 2.5).

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Heritage could have bid itself too, according to its rules. Not saying that happened, I have no idea, although there are people here with inside knowledge who likely do know who the consignor was and whether someone actually won it (and who).

I would think having happy buyers of big boy items is as important as getting a bid increment on this item. It If I was the leader and the house bid up my bid and auction ends with no real winner the real bidder would be pissed. I would not be a bidder in the future.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Agree with most of this here but I think we all know that a consignor and the consignment of a multi-million dollar card or collection is going to be handled and treated entirely differently than a consignor and the consignment of a $1500 card or collection.

As for this Heritage sale, someone from Heritage did post earlier in this thread that the card has no reserve and would be sold but if you read Heritages' rules, they and the consignor can bid on their own consignments.

I missed this. If that's true, then I would be shocked if the consignor didn't "win" the auction and simply pay the premium (if Heritage even charges the consignor a premium for a card like this).

[BioCRN]

I guess it's worth asking what others got from this auction and the price they expected to pay vs what the hammer ended up being.

I didn't snag any of the big boy bidder cards, but I picked up a couple wins...

I snagged a PSA 3 53 Satch that I "overpaid" by 10%-ish because I really liked how well it presented.

I also snagged a common PSA 3 T204 Ramly that was around current market price.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I missed this. If that's true, then I would be shocked if the consignor didn't "win" the auction and simply pay the premium (if Heritage even charges the consignor a premium for a card like this).

Exactly it…they pay the BP

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

I would think having happy buyers of big boy items is as important as getting a bid increment on this item. It If I was the leader and the house bid up my bid and auction ends with no real winner the real bidder would be pissed. I would not be a bidder in the future.

How would you know that the house was bidding against you though? My experience is that you can’t really tell who the other bidders are because they mask their IDs.

I suppose if the house won and it came back to auction a month later, then you could probably surmise that the house was the winner. But if they held it for 6 months or longer, it might be challenging to really infer that it was the house that had won.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Seven

At least Pafko was a solid ballplayer in his own right though. What was Skywalker's batting average?

1.000. He blew up the Death Star

https://youtu.be/3F1d3QWsyk0?si=-bgeipzRzt8hKs29

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

I get the general consensus on grading yesterday vs grading today, but in this thread the recently graded Ruth is a strongly questionable "3" with the 2 major creases, the nearly non-existent corners, and the major edge damage (front and back).

Someone else posted an oldschool graded SGC "3" of the exact card in this thread that blows away the modern graded one.

It's a casual consensus that oldschool grading is more lenient than modern grading, but it's still far from being something you can take for granted.

Most of the cards I'm still out there hunting are mostly commons, even if some are rare, and I've passed on more than a few in PSA/SGC 2-4 condition graded modern because they look like ass compared to the number slapped on the slab. That's even taking in account the differences in grading for lower-graded stuff between the two companies (such as marks on a card can still get a SGC 2 - 2.5).

It's not just old vs new grading. Buy 100 PSA 10s at random off ebay, they can all be new grades even, crack and resubmit, how many 10s do you think you will get? Better yet, buy them from 4SC.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Agree with most of this here but I think we all know that a consignor and the consignment of a multi-million dollar card or collection is going to be handled and treated entirely differently than a consignor and the consignment of a $1500 card or collection.

As for this Heritage sale, someone from Heritage did post earlier in this thread that the card has no reserve and would be sold but if you read Heritages' rules, they and the consignor can bid on their own consignments.

Consigners can bid on their own lots in Heritage auctions? Which rule states that?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not just old vs new grading. Buy 100 PSA 10s at random off ebay, they can all be new grades even, crack and resubmit, how many 10s do you think you will get? Better yet, buy them from 4SC.

Depending on the cards, that could be more of a financial loss than the consignor took on that BN Ruth.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Consigners can bid on their own lots in Heritage auctions? Which rule states that?

See #13:

https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions

[swarmee]

I don't think the consignor won the card. Because if they had, they would have paid more for it by bidding additional increments in order to price enforce the previous price they paid, right? At least they save face by having the sales price come out within a bid increment of the last sale, and then hold onto it until there are more buyers at that range.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by raulus

See #13:

https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions

I think the link might be broken, so here it is:

Conducting the Auction:

13. Notice of the consignor’s liberty to place bids on his lots in the Auction is hereby made in accordance with Article 2 of the Texas Business and Commercial Code. A “Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE WRITTEN “Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE “Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS. “Minimum Bids” are generally posted online several days prior to the Auction closing. Any successful bid placed by a
consignor on his property on the Auction floor, by any means during the live session, or after the “Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot. Auctioneer or its affiliates expressly reserve the right to modify any such bids at any time prior to the hammer based upon data made known to the Auctioneer or its affiliates.

There's also this, which seems pretty broad...

19. Auctioneer reserves the right to rescind the sale in the event of nonpayment, breach of a warranty, disputed ownership, auctioneer’s clerical error or omission in exercising bids and reserves, or for any other reason and in Auctioneer’s sole discretion.

And then there's this...

22. From time to time, the Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees may place bids on lots in the Auction.

23. The Auctioneer may extend advances, guarantees, or loans to certain consignors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I think the link might be broken, so here it is:



There's also this, which seems pretty broad...



And then there's this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN2KHeEWqZM

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by raulus

See #13:

https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions

So it looks like the consigner can set a hidden reserve pre-auction or bid on his own lots during the auction as long as he pays the full BP plus 10% seller’s commission. My guess is anyone who is bidding on his own lots is having a friend bid in his place.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I don't think the consignor won the card. Because if they had, they would have paid more for it by bidding additional increments in order to price enforce the previous price they paid, right? At least they save face by having the sales price come out within a bid increment of the last sale, and then hold onto it until there are more buyers at that range.

I agree. More likely that the consigner received a guaranteed minimum price from Heritage for the card.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

I would think having happy buyers of big boy items is as important as getting a bid increment on this item. It If I was the leader and the house bid up my bid and auction ends with no real winner the real bidder would be pissed. I would not be a bidder in the future.

How would you know that happened?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Exactly it…they pay the BP

and in this case, probably only a portion thereof.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Consigners can bid on their own lots in Heritage auctions? Which rule states that?

13

EDIT. I really need to finish reading threads before I post repeat answers.

Just to contribute something slightly new. according to UCC auction law:

§ 2-328 (4) If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.

Of course how the bidder who got shilled is supposed to know it happened is beyond me, disclosed or not, but Heritage absolutely discloses it.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

I guess it's worth asking what others got from this auction and the price they expected to pay vs what the hammer ended up being.

I didn't snag any of the big boy bidder cards, but I picked up a couple wins...

I snagged a PSA 3 53 Satch that I "overpaid" by 10%-ish because I really liked how well it presented.

I also snagged a common PSA 3 T204 Ramly that was around current market price.

I ended up winning the T214 and paid $1200 less than what it sold for last year, happy with the price.

[bcbgcbrcb]

FWIW (probably nothing), I’m in the camp that believes that the Ruth did not change hands. Maybe someone should start a poll on here?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by raulus

I’m going to guess no sale.

Probably a reserve on there that will pop and scare off the bidders.

Canary in the coal mine. Everything doesnt just go ...up

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

1.000. He blew up the Death Star

https://youtu.be/3F1d3QWsyk0?si=-bgeipzRzt8hKs29

Yeah, but the Rebels stole the plans to the Death Star, so Luke had the inside scoop.

Kinda like the what Houston Astros did.

It wasn’t a fair situation for the Empire.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

and in this case, probably only a portion thereof.

On a piece like this definitely.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by byrone

Yeah, but the Rebels stole the plans to the Death Star, so Luke had the inside scoop.

Kinda like the what Houston Astros did.

It wasn’t a fair situation for the Empire.

Seems more like simply better advance scouting by the Bothans.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by raulus

Seems more like simply better advance scouting by the Bothans.

Did they use garbage can signalling too?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by byrone

Did they use garbage can signalling too?

R2-D2

A garbage can with feet.


Steve

[Eric72]

Since we're on the Luke Skywalker topic:

Luke didn't bat 1.000. There was the time at Bespin where Darth Vader caught Luke looking and took the light saber right out of his hands. In fact, Vader took one of Luke's hands, too.

OK, I'll see myself out...

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Since we're on the Luke Skywalker topic:

Luke didn't bat 1.000. There was the time at Bespin where Darth Vader caught Luke looking and took the light saber right out of his hands. In fact, Vader took one of Luke's hands, too.

OK, I'll see myself out...

He's just a bad father.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I agree. More likely that the consigner received a guaranteed minimum price from Heritage for the card.

Which is what I was told happened with the REA sale as well.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

1.000. He blew up the Death Star

https://youtu.be/3F1d3QWsyk0?si=-bgeipzRzt8hKs29

.333 — he blew up the Death Star, got his ass kicked by his old man, then was getting worked by the Emperor before daddy saved him.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Which is what I was told happened with the REA sale as well.

By who?

[Exhibitman]

.333 is still HOF material. Besides he also gets credit for a sac fly that scored a winning run. See Kylo Ren.

Damn, my wife is right. I am a big fat nerd.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

.333 — he blew up the Death Star, got his ass kicked by his old man, then was getting worked by the Emperor before daddy saved him.

.250 - He couldn't raise the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, and gave up; and then didn't believe it when Yoda succeeded.

Steve

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Steve D

.250 - He couldn't raise the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, and gave up; and then didn't believe it when Yoda succeeded.

Steve

HAHAHAHA … “That, is why you fail.”

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Steve D

.250 - He couldn't raise the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, and gave up; and then didn't believe it when Yoda succeeded.

Steve

"Have Net54 not be without Yoda already?"

brianp-mebe

[JollyElm]

New advanced (light years ahead?) stat to judge whether or not a Jedi is HOF worthy:

DSTAR - Death Stars Trashed Above Replacement.

[theshowandme]

Don’t think you see Ohtani cards drop like this anytime soon

[bleeckerstreetcards]

I remember at the time it sold at REA that there were rumors that REA got the consignment by guaranteeing something like a $7.5-8m minimum price to Steve. I assume since it didn’t sell for that and we never heard a buyer claim ownership, REA purchased it as a business expense to maintain the guarantee. Remember they touted a $10m+ estimate. Then sold it almost two years later and took the loss as a write off during a strong year of sales in 2025. Selling at a different auction house with likely a limited fee deal kept it arms length and lowered the scrutiny on their initial sale (we’d be asking more q’s if this sold again at rea within 18 months), hence the effectively zero promotion heritage gave it compared to when REA took this everywhere two years ago. Waiting at least a year maybe led to some long term cap gains or similarly advantageous tax treatment. Why not wait longer? Market risk, idk. This is of course speculation but I can’t think of a better explanation other than “rich guy has change of heart and makes dumb decision with his money”… which is also perfectly likely but seems less plausible to me - since why sell at all… if you can afford a $3m loss than why not just hold it. The answer that comes to mind as I type this is unfortunately…. Divorce.

Idk. Curious others thoughts. And happy for the winner. Seems like a good deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brunswickreeves]

Why no reserve, like was put on the most recent T206 Wagner that ultimately didn’t sell and thus insulated the existing owner?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

This is one of the dumbest things in all of collecting — huge value placed on the card being #1 in the set. Is there anything comparable in sports collecting?

Let me guess, you're about 10 years younger than I am, OR never sorted your cards in number order and kept them from getting out of order with rubber bands.
Yes, in many sets the first card gets a premium in higher grades.

Once hobby supplies like sleeves, holders and boxes became common the reason the first and last cards were harder to find in great condition went away and was sort of forgotten.
Oddly, the hobby getting big with retail shops removed the reason rookie cards were worth more, but that has become so ingrained it probably will never go away.

[steve B]

LOL, posted then continued reading..... A foolish thing.

But yes, almost exactly 10 year difference.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Steve D

.250 - He couldn't raise the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, and gave up; and then didn't believe it when Yoda succeeded.

Steve

Spring training doesn't count. Besides, the real miracle in the swamp is that the ignition turned over. I leave my car at the airport for a week and its 50:50 I'm calling AAA.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Spring training doesn't count.

Good one.