Trump calls on Baseball Hall of Fame to admit Roger Clemens

[SyrNy1960]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article...225925250.html

[gunboat82]

Weird that he singled out Clemens. I wonder what distinguishes him from the other PED users.

[SyrNy1960]

I hope it happens, so the rest can get in and we can end the conversations each year about the PED players.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Weird that he singled out Clemens. I wonder what distinguishes him from the other PED users.

Maybe his politics?
When he isn't voted in, maybe the President can just issue an Executive Order.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe his politics?
When he isn't voted in, maybe the President can just issue an Executive Order.

Ass kissing and bribes can get you whatever you want in today's America.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Ass kissing and bribes can get you whatever you want in today's America.

Thank you for your attention to this matter!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Weird that he singled out Clemens. I wonder what distinguishes him from the other PED users.

The statement says he believes Clemens was falsely accused and did not use steroids. That would be why he is singled out. Or politics.




I think that Clemens probably did use, but the case against him is very weak and there is little to no real evidence beyond the bizarre aging pattern - really only the testimony of a convicted perjurer.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bk400

Thank you for your attention to this matter!

I mean, I wish it weren't so. It's hard to ignore though, unless one completely avoids all news.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I mean, I wish it weren't so. It's hard to ignore though, unless one completely avoids all news.

I completely avoid all news. Life is way better and in case you didn't know your statement has always been true.

[bk400]

I exclusively get my news from two flagship print newspapers -- one that leans left and one that leans right -- and ignore entirely the Politics sections of those newspapers. I find that helps.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I completely avoid all news. Life is way better and in case you didn't know your statement has always been true.

True, but it has reached absurd new heights recently. I keep telling myself I will avoid news but it's hard to do!

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bk400

I exclusively get my news from two flagship print newspapers -- one that leans left and one that leans right -- and ignore entirely the Politics sections of those newspapers. I find that helps.

This is definitely the way to go if you can manage it. It's just too convenient to pull up the news when you have some spare moments...

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bk400

I exclusively get my news from two flagship print newspapers -- one that leans left and one that leans right -- and ignore entirely the Politics sections of those newspapers. I find that helps.

NYT and WSJ?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

The statement says he believes Clemens was falsely accused and did not use steroids. That would be why he is singled out. Or politics.









I think that Clemens probably did use, but the case against him is very weak and there is little to no real evidence beyond the bizarre aging pattern - really only the testimony of a convicted perjurer.

Yes, plus statements from Amdy Pettite and Jason Grimsley, and Clemens' DNA on a steroids needle. But no acne, shrunken balls, or size 10 head like other users.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

NYT and WSJ?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Bingo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yes, plus statements from Amdy Pettite and Jason Grimsley, and Clemens' DNA on a steroids needle. But no acne, shrunken balls, or size 10 head like other users.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Pettitte backed way down on cross, admitted he wasn't sure at all.

[bk400]

It's a case of reverse jury nullification for the roid guys. The Contemporary Era committee is the only way in for those guys, and that committee is stacked with living HOF players. And as I've said before, I think the living HOF players are the least sympathetic voting cohort.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yes, plus statements from Amdy Pettite and Jason Grimsley, and Clemens' DNA on a steroids needle. But no acne, shrunken balls, or size 10 head like other users.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

I don't think I want to know how you confirmed this.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yes, plus statements from Amdy Pettite and Jason Grimsley, and Clemens' DNA on a steroids needle. But no acne, shrunken balls, or size 10 head like other users.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

1) Pettite backed down under oath and testified he wasn't sure that was what he actually had heard; he walked it back to a 'I don't know'.

2) The LA Times reported Grimsley fingered Clemens and Pettite and others in an affidavit. The affidavit was later unsealed and showed Grismley had not accused Clemens - he had said he got steroids from McNamee. The LA Times had to publish a retraction. I don't recall him later ever testifying against Clemens.

3) Clemens admitted the DNA on a needle from pretty early on. The dispute was if it was used for steroids (McNamee's story) or vitamin B12 shots (Clemens story, and to which his doctor testified to). The needle could have been used for either.

I suspect Clemens was guilty, but there is so much fake news about his case that is still widely believed.

[Lucas00]

The Mike piazza bat throw incident is the only clip you will ever need to see to judge his steroid usage (out of this solar system). And also to judge him as a person. He literally hurled a spear at Mike that could've easily impaled him.

[D. Bergin]

C’mon man, Pettitte was best buds with Clemens in both New York and Houston. He was workout buddies with him for years. He didn’t “mishear� anything. Likely he took it very easy on Clemens when he testified under oath.

Easy to walk back your testimony on your friend when you’re not under oath anymore. Pettitte was a genuinely nice guy and likely more honest then most. One of the only players to come clean after the Mitchell report came out. I don’t think he told the entire truth while he was under oath, but he told more then most. He certainly told more truth then Roger, who didn’t have the same reservations telling bald faced lies under testimony.

Now Roger was certainly a workout legend on whatever teams he played on. Pettitte credits him with extending his own career by convincing him to take a workout regimen seriously. Roger had a little help though….and I suspect he helped Pettitte get a little help to.

The real question is, do you think MLB was so far behind the 8 ball in regards to regulating the HGH problem (not necessarily the anabolic steroids as much), do you think it should matter, if MLB didn’t think to ban it until certain players had been making use of it for years. Should those players be penalized when they had no real guidance on the issue until it was too late.

I mean, they still knew it was wrong, because they all went to great lengths to hide it from the general public…but………..

[G1911]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

C’mon man, Pettitte was best buds with Clemens in both New York and Houston. He was workout buddies with him for years. He didn’t “mishear� anything. Likely he took it very easy on Clemens when he testified under oath.

Easy to walk back your testimony on your friend when you’re not under oath anymore. Pettitte was a genuinely nice guy and likely more honest then most. One of the only players to come clean after the Mitchell report came out. I don’t think he told the entire truth while he was under oath, but he told more then most. He certainly told more truth then Roger, who didn’t have the same reservations telling bald faced lies under testimony.

If the best/only evidence is Pettitte testifying under oath that he was 50/50 on if he had heard Clemens right and he didn't really know, well, that's how you know there's no actual evidence. There's a good reason Clemens was acquitted of perjury for his claims before Congress that he never used steroids - nobody can find any proof he did.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

The Mike piazza bat throw incident is the only clip you will ever need to see to judge his steroid usage (out of this solar system). And also to judge him as a person. He literally hurled a spear at Mike that could've easily impaled him.

I'd be fine if we yanked Marichal out of the Hall and used this to deny Clemens - but it's just not the reason he's being kept out, and surely we all actually know that it is not any kind of reasonable evidence he used steroids.

[Seven]

The true travesty is that the commissioner who fully knew steroid use was going on, but chose to look the other way, is in The Hall. I don't know how that's justifiable when the record holder for Cy Young's and MVP's respectively are not.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by G1911

If the best/only evidence is Pettitte testifying under oath that he was 50/50 on if he had heard Clemens right and he didn't really know, well, that's how you know there's no actual evidence. There's a good reason Clemens was acquitted of perjury for his claims before Congress that he never used steroids - nobody can find any proof he did.

This isn't a court of law, it's a court of public opinion and the standards aren't as high. Please don't make me invoke the name of OJ...that's just low hanging fruit.

We all know he did them...the circumstantial evidence is bigly.

Do YOU think Clemens was clean? Pettitte was Clemens best baseball friend for years...and even HE couldn't bring himself to clearing Clemens name. Do you, in a million years think Pettitte did HGH...but Clemens was completely clean?

At least Pettitte showed some sort of remorse and admittance after he got caught. Clemens was from the school of deny, deny, deny and hire a bunch of high priced lawyers to "get him off".

BTW, the worst thing that happened to Clemens is he's been denied a memorial in an old baseball building after his career was over. Him and Bonds and McGwire and Sosa and A-Rod and Palmiero and etc., etc., etc....lives didn't end when that happened. They're all going to be fine...and if not...it's not going to be because of that.

...and if they go in....it doesn't mean they're "exonerated" or "innocent". Just means that the wheels turned in their favor.......again.

[KJA]

Originally Posted by Seven

The true travesty is that the commissioner who fully knew steroid use was going on, but chose to look the other way, is in The Hall. I don't know how that's justifiable when the record holder for Cy Young's and MVP's respectively are not.

That's the way I see it, if Selig is in then so should everybody else

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by KJA

That's the way I see it, if Selig is in then so should everybody else

That's the opposite of how I see it. None of them should be in. Just because one rat sneaks through the fence doesn't mean you should open the gates to all of them.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

The Mike piazza bat throw incident is the only clip you will ever need to see to judge his steroid usage (out of this solar system). And also to judge him as a person. He literally hurled a spear at Mike that could've easily impaled him.

One of the most bizarre moments in baseball history.

[bk400]

Catchers are strong. Piazza would have kicked Clemens' ass if the benches didn't clear first.

[packs]

Is there really any doubt Clemens cheated? I see all these technicalities listed but ignoring that a friend changed their mind about what a friend said to them when reporters and the law came asking about it and pushing the narrative that maybe he really did mishear his friend seems to be the biggest leap of them all.

We all live real lives in a real world. Is it really so hard to believe a friend would cover for a friend?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

This isn't a court of law, it's a court of public opinion and the standards aren't as high. Please don't make me invoke the name of OJ...that's just low hanging fruit.

We all know he did them...the circumstantial evidence is bigly.

Do YOU think Clemens was clean? Pettitte was Clemens best baseball friend for years...and even HE couldn't bring himself to clearing Clemens name. Do you, in a million years think Pettitte did HGH...but Clemens was completely clean?

At least Pettitte showed some sort of remorse and admittance after he got caught. Clemens was from the school of deny, deny, deny and hire a bunch of high priced lawyers to "get him off".

BTW, the worst thing that happened to Clemens is he's been denied a memorial in an old baseball building after his career was over. Him and Bonds and McGwire and Sosa and A-Rod and Palmiero and etc., etc., etc....lives didn't end when that happened. They're all going to be fine...and if not...it's not going to be because of that.

...and if they go in....it doesn't mean they're "exonerated" or "innocent". Just means that the wheels turned in their favor.......again.

I'm aware it's not a court of law. That doesn't mean that one should substitute feelings and accusations over evidence in their reasoning of any issue. I might be suspicious based on accusations, but why should I be confident X did Y when there is no evidence that X, in objective fact, did Y?

You can see in the transcript that in my first post that I said I personally think Clemens probably did them. The aging pattern is so unusual, but there's really nothing beyond that suspicion - and suspicion is merely suspicion, not guilt. I am hardly certain he did them, because nobody can find any evidence that he did. Belief without evidence isn't worth much. His case is treated as if he is absolutely guilty, but almost none of the things anyone ever cites are actually true or bear out.

Who has ever suggested lives ended because of HOF votes? Sure, I'll agree with the last half because 100% of people do lol

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Is there really any doubt Clemens cheated? I see all these technicalities listed but ignoring that a friend changed their mind about what a friend said to them when reporters and the law came asking about it and pushing the narrative that maybe he really did mishear his friend seems to be the biggest leap of them all.

We all live real lives in a real world. Is it really so hard to believe a friend would cover for a friend?

Is there any evidence he cheated?

Of course Pettitte may well have lied on the stand to cover for Clemens after previously accusing him. Or perhaps his lie was in accusing him while getting pressed by investigators to give up other people. Hence the attraction of evidence - people say things that are simply not true constantly for myriad reasons and motive and regularly contradict themselves at different times.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

Is there any evidence he cheated?

Of course Pettitte may well have lied on the stand to cover for Clemens after previously accusing him. Or perhaps his lie was in accusing him while getting pressed by investigators to give up other people. Hence the attraction of evidence - people say things that are simply not true constantly for myriad reasons and motive and regularly contradict themselves at different times.

The evidence was that Pettitte openly admitted his mistakes and confirmed the report on him was true. The evidence against Pettitte was being named in the report.

Later on, Pettitte said during testimony that Clemens told him about using HGH. During cross, Pettitte's memory of the conversation reverted to him not being sure anymore.

I have friends. It's not a stretch for me to see myself walking back comments about them if I think I might be jeopardizing them by syaing anything at all.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by packs

The evidence was that Pettitte openly admitted his mistakes and confirmed the report on him was true. The evidence against Pettitte was being named in the report.

Later on, Pettitte said during testimony that Clemens told him about using HGH. During cross, Pettitte's memory of the conversation reverted to him not being sure anymore.

I have friends. It's not a stretch for me to see myself walking back comments about them if I think I might be jeopardizing them by syaing anything at all.

Beyond that, Clemens was the beneficiary of rulings that some evidence against him was inadmissible, including inconsistent statements he made and testimony from Pettitte's wife. There was also DNA evidence linking Clemens to vials, syringes, and cotton balls with steroids, but the defense was able to establish reasonable doubt because of chain of custody problems.

Clemens was guilty as sin, but his lawyers were better than the prosecutors. For what's it's worth, Bonds was ultimately not convicted either, but has also been blacklisted. As far as I know, Trump has never publicly complained about the treatment of Bonds.

[SyrNy1960]

President Trump Not Happy With National Baseball Hall of Fame

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article...154818426.html

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

The evidence was that Pettitte openly admitted his mistakes and confirmed the report on him was true. The evidence against Pettitte was being named in the report.

Later on, Pettitte said during testimony that Clemens told him about using HGH. During cross, Pettitte's memory of the conversation reverted to him not being sure anymore.

I have friends. It's not a stretch for me to see myself walking back comments about them if I think I might be jeopardizing them by syaing anything at all.

Exactly, he ended up with meaningless statements about how he was 50/50 on if he'd heard a conversation right and blew the case against Clemens by leaving only an accusation from a convicted perjurer and no evidence. Speculation about which of his stories (even though Pettitte is so honest!) is true and which is false is just speculation and people's beliefs. By the standard applied to Clemens here, I'd have to believe most anyone accused of anything was guilty of that thing. Compare Clemens' situation to how this board will exonerate Ortiz, for whom the evidence is greater than it is for Clemens but people like him so he gets a pass. Evidence is a good standard to use, because among many reasons it helps to steer towards the center and around people's narratives of good guys and bad guys.

The best thing against Clemens is that his career trajectory tracks with McNamee's charges and is highly abnormal. But that ain't much evidence either.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

President Trump Not Happy With National Baseball Hall of Fame

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article...154818426.html

And he would've gotten in too, if not for those pesky voters! Time for a march on Cooperstown! January 6 is coming up...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by G1911

Exactly, he ended up with meaningless statements about how he was 50/50 on if he'd heard a conversation right and blew the case against Clemens by leaving only an accusation from a convicted perjurer and no evidence. Speculation about which of his stories (even though Pettitte is so honest!) is true and which is false is just speculation and people's beliefs. By the standard applied to Clemens here, I'd have to believe most anyone accused of anything was guilty of that thing. Compare Clemens' situation to how this board will exonerate Ortiz, for whom the evidence is greater than it is for Clemens but people like him so he gets a pass. Evidence is a good standard to use, because among many reasons it helps to steer towards the center and around people's narratives of good guys and bad guys.

The best thing against Clemens is that his career trajectory tracks with McNamee's charges and is highly abnormal. But that ain't much evidence either.

Do you think Ortiz did more gear then Clemens?

Not a court of law. Nobody is going to jail or even paying a fine. What's your opinion?

Yes, I believe it's a level of complicity.

Personally, I think Ortiz, Sheffield and Pettitte stole a few packs of gum from the convenience store. I think Clemens and Bonds and McGwire and Sosa robbed an armored car as it was making a pickup at the bank.

Hell, Sheffield and Pettitte (I'm not sure about Ortiz), at least fessed up about it, and showed some remorse about it, unlike these other top tier guys who went into denial mode......though I think McGwire finally admitted to it eventually also. I don't think Pettitte is quite a HOF'er anyways, but it's why he still gets support, on top of his Postseason record.

I think most of the people responsible for voting in these popularity contests, feel the same way.

Everybody who votes on these committees, including the ballplayers who have been in the clubhouses, and likely really knew what went on behind closed doors, form their opinions around they're own circumstantial evidence.

Oh, Jose Canseco never failed a drug test either. Pretty sure he was geared up LOL! He only started throwing everybody else under the bus, after he got pissed off he was never invited back into the league after his age 36 season.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

President Trump Not Happy With National Baseball Hall of Fame

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article...154818426.html

StOp ThE sTeAl!

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

Exactly, he ended up with meaningless statements about how he was 50/50 on if he'd heard a conversation right and blew the case against Clemens by leaving only an accusation from a convicted perjurer and no evidence. Speculation about which of his stories (even though Pettitte is so honest!) is true and which is false is just speculation and people's beliefs. By the standard applied to Clemens here, I'd have to believe most anyone accused of anything was guilty of that thing. Compare Clemens' situation to how this board will exonerate Ortiz, for whom the evidence is greater than it is for Clemens but people like him so he gets a pass. Evidence is a good standard to use, because among many reasons it helps to steer towards the center and around people's narratives of good guys and bad guys.

The best thing against Clemens is that his career trajectory tracks with McNamee's charges and is highly abnormal. But that ain't much evidence either.

HOF voting is about opinion though. Opinion is influenced by facts but not limited to them.