Got burnt today

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think they probably have people who have actually been defrauded they should help more.

I think that is my point. They were standing all around him. But they didn't know they were defrauded, so.....

Try to look away from the fact that this situaion is like someone reporting that they bought fake coke. The guy who called may be an idiot, but it is still a crime to sell fake drugs.

This place is knowingly selling bad stuff. Don't we have an obligation to attempt to help the innocents from being defrauded? And to prevent the knowing from moving it on down the chain to the rube at the end?? (I think we've all been that guy at least once )

[isaac2004]

The OP originally saw a chance to make a quick buck by flipping material that "was not guaranteed to be authentic", and when he didn't have a chance to flip, he tried to get his money back. Now he comes on here whining about the fact that he lost an opportunity to rip someone off. If that is not the case, I must be misinterpreting this thread, because to me, the OP comes off just as bad as the group he bought the forged item from, because any reasonable collector would stay away from those red flags. It is one thing to be tricked by a bad description or vague anything, it is another to know the item is not real and buy it, then get mad when the people you bought it from won't refund you.

My two cents

[clutch]

Originally Posted by isaac2004

The OP originally saw a chance to make a quick buck by flipping material that "was not guaranteed to be authentic", and when he didn't have a chance to flip, he tried to get his money back. Now he comes on here whining about the fact that he lost an opportunity to rip someone off. If that is not the case, I must be misinterpreting this thread, because to me, the OP comes off just as bad as the group he bought the forged item from, because any reasonable collector would stay away from those red flags. It is one thing to be tricked by a bad description or vague anything, it is another to know the item is not real and buy it, then get mad when the people you bought it from won't refund you.

My two cents

This is so far off base that I don't even know where to begin. Maybe you should save your 2 cents and actually have a clue what you are talking about before you start flinging accusations.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think that is my point. They were standing all around him. But they didn't know they were defrauded, so.....

Try to look away from the fact that this situaion is like someone reporting that they bought fake coke. The guy who called may be an idiot, but it is still a crime to sell fake drugs.

This place is knowingly selling bad stuff. Don't we have an obligation to attempt to help the innocents from being defrauded? And to prevent the knowing from moving it on down the chain to the rube at the end?? (I think we've all been that guy at least once )

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!

Oh, I am not saying this auction house isn't doing something morally wrong, I just don't think it's actionable. They remind me a little bit of Coaches Corner. They do just enough to not be culpable.

[drc]

Adam, a lawyer, convinced me. While they probably shouldn't be selling the stuff, if they tell bidders 'This probably is not authentic' that's a darned clear statement.

I assume they're a wholesale, deal-in-everything-including-used-farm-equipment auction house and don't profess or pretend to be experts in autograph authentication.

[Exhibitman]

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

The law will protect a fool [negligence].
The law might protect a damned fool [gross negligence].
But the law won't protect a goddamned fool [reckless].

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

[clutch]

Clarification time.

It's amazing to me how what I thought I was writing and the message I was trying to convey got interpreted in the way it did.

Just so everyone knows this is not what happened

After buying things from an auction, I did not grow devil horns, rub money all over my body and laugh while running around a fire only to eventually buy a fake myself and seek revenge.

At no point did I claim to be a victim. I even went out of my way to express this. I couldn't care less about me losing my money. Me buying that picture and not getting my money back was in no way my motive for inquiring about law enforcement.

I used the Barry Sanders photo as an example. I didn't go to the office expecting a refund. I knew there was no way they were going to give me my money back. I knew that this wasn't a faked autograph. It wasn't my word against theirs. This was an indisputable copy. I wanted to bring this to their attention and see how they handled it. That's all.

My intention wasn't to make this thread into a character evaluation. Using my perfect 20/20 hindsight, I would have written my original post differently.

I didn't buy things there and look away because I was making money off of items I purchased. I hated what they did then as much as I do now. I buy stuff off Craigslist, flea markets, auctions, friends of friends, Ebay whatever. To me, this was just another place to buy stuff. I didn't think (as I do now) that legally buying legitimate items there could hurt anybody but myself. If I got burnt, I just lick my wounds, learn a lesson and move on. I'M NOT WHINING ABOUT MY STUPID PICTURE!!!

I didn't just get burnt there for the 1st time and decide to start a rebellion because it finally happened to me. I've bought other bad things too. I just figured you win some you lose some and with my knowledge I won more than I lost. It's just that this time I decided to write about it.

Here's my point. I bought things there because I knew the good from the bad. I could legally buy a legitimate item there. Not everybody knows the difference. I see fake cards go for hundreds of dollars and it makes me cringe.

I probably should have pointed out that that disclaimer is a new thing that they just started doing. It is also only on sports items and nothing else. A lot of my examples pre-date this disclaimer. Anyway, this isn't some dude setting up shop in a church basement. This place is huge. If any of you are want to know, I'm talking about Repocast in Michigan.

Repocast.com

There are thousands of people bidding on these things. I know some of you think I'm a bad man that kicks puppies and supports counterfeiting, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I actually care about these people and our hobby.

I know that a lot of people said to learn your lesson and walk away, but isn't walking away also part of the problem? If 1 person walks away there are 3 more to replace them.

My interest in the disclaimer is this. There is a difference between reprints and counterfeits. This isn't misrepresenting a reprint as an original. My understanding is that a counterfeit item is illegal to create, own, sell Period. Could a disclaimer really cover you if you are selling illegal items?

I'm not on a personal vendetta. I'm not mad about the photo I bought. I actually laughed to myself because I have never seen that one before and it caught me off guard. I'm not looking for the S.W.A.T. team to bust through the roof and detain everybody (even though that would be really cool). My realistic goal would be for someone to give them a kick in the pants to clean up the category.

Disclaimer or not, people are buying this stuff by the truckload and that is a problem.

And for your information, I never did anything illegal, immoral, dishonest. I only do legitimate business. And I most certainly never "ripped anybody off". I realize that even buying legit items there hurts our cause and I will stop buying there immediately.

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

The law will protect a fool [negligence].
The law might protect a damned fool [gross negligence].
But the law won't protect a goddamned fool [reckless].

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

I agree with your logic, but now you've got me curious. And I'm asking seriously, not just arguing.

Is there some line where an item is so different from what the description says that the disclaimer wouldn't work?

In this instance, they say it's probably fake, but the degree of that is beyond what you'd normally expect.
It's a signed photo, with a PSA sticker.
Except ...

It's not a photo.
It's not signed by anyone, not even someone signing someone elses name.
It doesn't have a sticker.

It is a photocopy of what was described.
I suppose they could say "sure, that's what we meant. It may not be anything but a photocopy of something"

If that actually works legally then I'm amazed.

I suppose if it was a big deal the actual path of recourse would be sending it to PSA as a faked sticker, then PSA going after whoever did the copying for copyright/counterfeiting or ....?
Not that that would ever happen since that would open PSA up to a bunch of photocopies being sent in.

Steve B