Got burnt today

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!

Oh, I am not saying this auction house isn't doing something morally wrong, I just don't think it's actionable. They remind me a little bit of Coaches Corner. They do just enough to not be culpable.

[drc]

Adam, a lawyer, convinced me. While they probably shouldn't be selling the stuff, if they tell bidders 'This probably is not authentic' that's a darned clear statement.

I assume they're a wholesale, deal-in-everything-including-used-farm-equipment auction house and don't profess or pretend to be experts in autograph authentication.

[Exhibitman]

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

The law will protect a fool [negligence].
The law might protect a damned fool [gross negligence].
But the law won't protect a goddamned fool [reckless].

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

[clutch]

Clarification time.

It's amazing to me how what I thought I was writing and the message I was trying to convey got interpreted in the way it did.

Just so everyone knows this is not what happened

After buying things from an auction, I did not grow devil horns, rub money all over my body and laugh while running around a fire only to eventually buy a fake myself and seek revenge.

At no point did I claim to be a victim. I even went out of my way to express this. I couldn't care less about me losing my money. Me buying that picture and not getting my money back was in no way my motive for inquiring about law enforcement.

I used the Barry Sanders photo as an example. I didn't go to the office expecting a refund. I knew there was no way they were going to give me my money back. I knew that this wasn't a faked autograph. It wasn't my word against theirs. This was an indisputable copy. I wanted to bring this to their attention and see how they handled it. That's all.

My intention wasn't to make this thread into a character evaluation. Using my perfect 20/20 hindsight, I would have written my original post differently.

I didn't buy things there and look away because I was making money off of items I purchased. I hated what they did then as much as I do now. I buy stuff off Craigslist, flea markets, auctions, friends of friends, Ebay whatever. To me, this was just another place to buy stuff. I didn't think (as I do now) that legally buying legitimate items there could hurt anybody but myself. If I got burnt, I just lick my wounds, learn a lesson and move on. I'M NOT WHINING ABOUT MY STUPID PICTURE!!!

I didn't just get burnt there for the 1st time and decide to start a rebellion because it finally happened to me. I've bought other bad things too. I just figured you win some you lose some and with my knowledge I won more than I lost. It's just that this time I decided to write about it.

Here's my point. I bought things there because I knew the good from the bad. I could legally buy a legitimate item there. Not everybody knows the difference. I see fake cards go for hundreds of dollars and it makes me cringe.

I probably should have pointed out that that disclaimer is a new thing that they just started doing. It is also only on sports items and nothing else. A lot of my examples pre-date this disclaimer. Anyway, this isn't some dude setting up shop in a church basement. This place is huge. If any of you are want to know, I'm talking about Repocast in Michigan.

Repocast.com

There are thousands of people bidding on these things. I know some of you think I'm a bad man that kicks puppies and supports counterfeiting, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I actually care about these people and our hobby.

I know that a lot of people said to learn your lesson and walk away, but isn't walking away also part of the problem? If 1 person walks away there are 3 more to replace them.

My interest in the disclaimer is this. There is a difference between reprints and counterfeits. This isn't misrepresenting a reprint as an original. My understanding is that a counterfeit item is illegal to create, own, sell Period. Could a disclaimer really cover you if you are selling illegal items?

I'm not on a personal vendetta. I'm not mad about the photo I bought. I actually laughed to myself because I have never seen that one before and it caught me off guard. I'm not looking for the S.W.A.T. team to bust through the roof and detain everybody (even though that would be really cool). My realistic goal would be for someone to give them a kick in the pants to clean up the category.

Disclaimer or not, people are buying this stuff by the truckload and that is a problem.

And for your information, I never did anything illegal, immoral, dishonest. I only do legitimate business. And I most certainly never "ripped anybody off". I realize that even buying legit items there hurts our cause and I will stop buying there immediately.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by clutch

Clarification time.

It's amazing to me how what I thought I was writing and the message I was trying to convey got interpreted in the way it did.

Just so everyone knows this is not what happened

After buying things from an auction, I did not grow devil horns, rub money all over my body and laugh while running around a fire only to eventually buy a fake myself and seek revenge.

At no point did I claim to be a victim. I even went out of my way to express this. I couldn't care less about me losing my money. Me buying that picture and not getting my money back was in no way my motive for inquiring about law enforcement.

I used the Barry Sanders photo as an example. I didn't go to the office expecting a refund. I knew there was no way they were going to give me my money back. I knew that this wasn't a faked autograph. It wasn't my word against theirs. This was an indisputable copy. I wanted to bring this to their attention and see how they handled it. That's all.

My intention wasn't to make this thread into a character evaluation. Using my perfect 20/20 hindsight, I would have written my original post differently.

I didn't buy things there and look away because I was making money off of items I purchased. I hated what they did then as much as I do now. I buy stuff off Craigslist, flea markets, auctions, friends of friends, Ebay whatever. To me, this was just another place to buy stuff. I didn't think (as I do now) that legally buying legitimate items there could hurt anybody but myself. If I got burnt, I just lick my wounds, learn a lesson and move on. I'M NOT WHINING ABOUT MY STUPID PICTURE!!!

I didn't just get burnt there for the 1st time and decide to start a rebellion because it finally happened to me. I've bought other bad things too. I just figured you win some you lose some and with my knowledge I won more than I lost. It's just that this time I decided to write about it.

Here's my point. I bought things there because I knew the good from the bad. I could legally buy a legitimate item there. Not everybody knows the difference. I see fake cards go for hundreds of dollars and it makes me cringe.

I probably should have pointed out that that disclaimer is a new thing that they just started doing. It is also only on sports items and nothing else. A lot of my examples pre-date this disclaimer. Anyway, this isn't some dude setting up shop in a church basement. This place is huge. If any of you are want to know, I'm talking about Repocast in Michigan.

Repocast.com

There are thousands of people bidding on these things. I know some of you think I'm a bad man that kicks puppies and supports counterfeiting, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I actually care about these people and our hobby.

I know that a lot of people said to learn your lesson and walk away, but isn't walking away also part of the problem? If 1 person walks away there are 3 more to replace them.

My interest in the disclaimer is this. There is a difference between reprints and counterfeits. This isn't misrepresenting a reprint as an original. My understanding is that a counterfeit item is illegal to create, own, sell Period. Could a disclaimer really cover you if you are selling illegal items?

I'm not on a personal vendetta. I'm not mad about the photo I bought. I actually laughed to myself because I have never seen that one before and it caught me off guard. I'm not looking for the S.W.A.T. team to bust through the roof and detain everybody (even though that would be really cool). My realistic goal would be for someone to give them a kick in the pants to clean up the category.

Disclaimer or not, people are buying this stuff by the truckload and that is a problem.

And for your information, I never did anything illegal, immoral, dishonest. I only do legitimate business. And I most certainly never "ripped anybody off". I realize that even buying legit items there hurts our cause and I will stop buying there immediately.

Nice job. FORE!

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by clutch

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

deciding not to buy from those idiots is the only thing to do....It's like trying to buy a Kewpie Doll from Always Fake at Auction...WHY would I buy a THING from a site that sells 99% pathetic worn out forgeries to complete Nimrods???

Same applys here. Thanks for sharing and good decision not to buy from those LOSERS again. Let the greedy bastards buy their forgeries on the cheap. The old adage "you get what you pay for" applies here.

It is hard to believe that people are so damned stupid.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by clutch

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

No, I will take away credit based on that answer You clearly don't "always" inspect the item first because you did not inspect this item. You "usually" do so. This time you didn't and it happened to be a bad item. Whoops, that'll 'learn ya' for the next time you are tempted to dance with the devil in the fluorescent auction light.

I don't think anyone is really casting unfounded aspersions your way, it is just that: (1) some people have a difficult time finding the middle ground between nice and total flaming a-hole when it comes to responding to something disagreeable to them, and (2) you are repeatedly justifying and defending a fundamentally flawed position. Had you posted the story as a "caution, don't do this and don't deal with these crooks" story, you'd have gotten a polite response or two and it would be done. What you really wanted was for the folks here to respond with a sympathetic cluck of "yes, you poor thing, you were cheated and abused by the thieving auctioneer." You won't get that from most posters here because you participated in a known scamsters' auction absent even the most rudimentary precautions. It is like buying a $200 Mathewson from Roaches' Corner and being surprised that it is a fake. Shades of Claude Rains...



Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.

Now, as to whether an item ever falls so far from the mark that it would overcome a disclaimer, certainly that is possible but it is a straw man argument in this context. Let's say you bought an [allegedly] autographed photo and the guy handed you a basketball. Obviously, no disclaimer is going to prevent you from handing it back and asking for the picture. You don't need a fancy fraud argument for that--it is plainly not the item that you bid on. That is not the case with the scenario you presented. You did not receive a completely different item than what you bid on; you received exactly what you bid on but it turned out to be counterfeit, and you were told up front to assume that the item was not genuine.

[EvilKing00]

i would think that if the item says, "not believed to be real" then they are all good when it comes to selling that stuff

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

(1) some people have a difficult time finding the middle ground between nice and total flaming a-hole when it comes to responding to something disagreeable to them.

Possibly the single greatest quote I have ever read here.

On a side note, although I have never had this situation happen to me, something similar really pisses me off. I have (on many occasions) viewed something, called the auction for info / clarification, and then driven over an hour to find out it was a copy, or reprint, or whatever. My poor son has had to endure many a ride home with me-a-bitchin. Now he is very discriminating on which trips he chooses to accompany me.

[isaac2004]

He is my cousin (well in broad terms)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

The law will protect a fool [negligence].
The law might protect a damned fool [gross negligence].
But the law won't protect a goddamned fool [reckless].

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

I agree with your logic, but now you've got me curious. And I'm asking seriously, not just arguing.

Is there some line where an item is so different from what the description says that the disclaimer wouldn't work?

In this instance, they say it's probably fake, but the degree of that is beyond what you'd normally expect.
It's a signed photo, with a PSA sticker.
Except ...

It's not a photo.
It's not signed by anyone, not even someone signing someone elses name.
It doesn't have a sticker.

It is a photocopy of what was described.
I suppose they could say "sure, that's what we meant. It may not be anything but a photocopy of something"

If that actually works legally then I'm amazed.

I suppose if it was a big deal the actual path of recourse would be sending it to PSA as a faked sticker, then PSA going after whoever did the copying for copyright/counterfeiting or ....?
Not that that would ever happen since that would open PSA up to a bunch of photocopies being sent in.

Steve B