Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the question comes down to this. If I sell a card in a GAI slab, and don't say anything about it, am I implicitly warranting the card is unaltered? Or is the buyer taking the risk that it's altered, knowing it's in an inferior holder?

I looked at the original ebay post and the seller clearly says " sharp corners" " Near mint condition"
Saying that is very VERY different than sayin GAI has graded it near mint. Seller sold this card as near mint and it came back as altered. So in the case out of the case he has no case.

[Buythatcard]

Why does the OP refuse to disclose the name of this Buyer? He has been asked several times.

We can block this buyer so that we don't have it happen to us.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Why does the OP refuse to disclose the name of this Buyer? He has been asked several times.

We can block this buyer so that we don't have it happen to us.

So the OP confirmed what card it is, and a good number of board members have been able to identify random altered cards sold by PWCC, so why can't someone other than the OP just identify the buyer with 11332 feedback on Ebay? There can't be all that many people card buyers with that volume of feedback.

[toolifedave]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I looked at the original ebay post and the seller clearly says " sharp corners" " Near mint condition"
Saying that is very VERY different than sayin GAI has graded it near mint. Seller sold this card as near mint and it came back as altered. So in the case out of the case he has no case.

I have not given the buyer’s name since it is my understand to use this site I have be careful what I post. The ebay original ad has been posted by someone else and includes the winners details.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by toolifedave

I have not given the buyer’s name since it is my understand to use this site I have be careful what I post. The ebay original ad has been posted by someone else and includes the winners details.

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

That's how 90 percent of the complaint threads end up Ryan, without naming names.

And I would still like to know why, if the OP thought he had a genuine unaltered Gehrig 7, he would let it go in a GAI holder at a fraction of what it would sell for in a real holder. But I can only ask the same question so many times before I lose interest.

[Leon]

Ryan, I always appreciate the help but that bolded rule at the top of every page has changed. I kept getting the "well, if it is a fact then it's not an opinion and I don't need my name out there." To that I call total BS so the wording changed. Here is the new rule below (been there a few months at least). It tightened up (or loosened, if you will) the rule. So if the OP mentions the name of the seller then his full name will have to be out here. I am not sure he minds. I know positively that the op is not a big techie person as I walked him through how to post before this thread, on a very pleasant phone call. That all said, now the new rule is-

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.
.

And my thought, regardless of what sales talk was given in the description, you crack a card you own a card. (unless both parties agree it is ok beforehand, which is not the case here.)

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Mark17]

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

[slightlyrounded]

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

Not apples to apples...

First off, PSA is anything but infallible. They are the ones who’ve mistakenly numerically graded those thousands of PWCC and other altered cards. They have made more “mistakes” and issued more false numerical grades than anyone. So why is their word the word of God? It’s amazing that despite the mountain of indisputable evidence, people are still hypnotized by them.

Secondly, the card was sold with a proper description in a GAI Holder. It was not returned in the same state. You cannot tamper with an item and then return it, when you failed to realize the desired personal gain.

Lastly, the apparent narrowing of the card towards the bottom is due to the way and the angle by which it was photographed. It is called a parallax view, and is a common phenomenon when photographing at an angle. The portion closest to the camera lens will appear larger than the portion that’s further away.

If the card was scanned in a more traditional manner, you’d see that it is symmetrical. Bottom line is that the buyer took advantage of the system, at the expense of the seller. I hope his name is disclosed, for the sake of our collecting community.

[Rhotchkiss]

You crack, no give back.

No disclosure (of buyer), no pity.

[Bill77]

Just a hypothetical question, If the card came back as a PSA 5 it would have been worth what the buyer paid according to the PSA pricing of the card, so if the card had come back with a grade of 5 or less would the buyer still have tried to return the card knowing he would not have made any profit on a similar or higher PSA grade for the card?

[Mark17]

I think a lot of people here, if they want to be consistent on principle, need to revise some of their posts in the dozens of threads involving sellers peddling altered cards in high-grade TPG holders.

I am not saying the OP knew that was the case.

Now that the card is out of its holder, second, third, fourth opinions can be rendered. If it is in fact altered, then the buyer avoided being taken and that is a good thing for everybody, especially future owners of that card.

As was noted by many, in previous posts, grading/authenticating cannot be done very accurately when a card is in a holder, so cracking it out was required to reveal the true condition of the card.

Disclaimers:

1. Had PSA said it was unaltered, but low grade, I would side with the seller. Numeric grade is opinion. Altered is a different story.

2. If GAI's standards were such that an altered card could still receive a "7" grade, then I would side with the seller.

3. If it turns out the card is not conclusively determined to be altered, I would side with the seller.

[JohnP0621]

I once purchased a Ty Cobb Silk at the Philly Show 2 years ago that was graded by GAI 4 . After the purchase I took it directly to the SGC table in the original slab to have it re-graded by SGC.,The item came back as altered. I contacted the seller and asked for a refund . The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case. The seller took back the card and gave the full refund . I knew when I purchased the card that a lot of GAI cards come back as altered when submitted to SGC or PSA. I also knew that if the card came back in the same grade it would have been worth more $$$ in the SGC slab. But I was also aware that if I cracked it out before submitting and it came back altered the Gamble would be on me 100%
and I would not expect the seller to take any of the responsibility .
I think in this case both parties should take a part of the responsibility
The buyer took a big gamble and lost . Also hard to believe that the seller didn't think the card might have been altered when listed as Near Mint.

John P

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case.

And if PWCC said this, EVERYBODY on this site would say: "So you can try to resell the altered card as a nicely graded card to the next sucker, right?!"

If the card was altered and being misrepresented in that GAI 7 holder, the buyer did all of us, and hobbyists yet unborn, a favor. One less mis-graded card out there.

[bounce]

if the card was not returned in the GAI holder, it's not what was sold.

It may take a lot of effort, but items like this have to be returned in the condition in which they were sold.

Once it returned, take pictures and send them in, compared to the original pictures of how it was sold. Again, may take a while but you'll have a good chance of not having to accept the return if it's not returned as sent - and this one clearly wasn't.

However, this situation also demonstrates just how much more complicated all these altered cards are making the hobby now.