Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[Mark17]

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

If the OP bought the card in a GAI slab then theoretically he is trusting GAI's opinion that the card is what it is. If the buyer buys it that way he/she should be under the same understanding. It is what it is...

I don't think that either one should "know" the card being in a GAI slab is automatically or possibly altered. What if the card was purchased as a gift by a spouse? Does that change anything?

Based on what has been presented, the buyer was looking for a PSA bump, didn't get one and has now harmed the seller's item. Buyer also seems to be a large dealer or collector based on feedback.. ebay has dropped the ball on this...

My point is that a rational seller would not sell a card in a GAI holder that's worth 3X in a PSA or SGC holder, unless he already had tried to cross it, or was pretty sure it was bad. None of that really has anything to do with ebay which should not permit a return in this case because the buyer cannot return the same product he purchased. On the other hand, it's hard for me to feel too bad for the OP who misrepresented, even if unintentionally, the card.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Cards worth this much have to be submitted at a high dollar, quick turnaround level. Plus he returned the card with the PSA rejection sticker, no?

Buyer could have had a sticker from a previous submission of same card and swapped the card out... I guess OP can check that with PSA though..

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On the other hand, it's hard for me to feel too bad for the OP who misrepresented, even if unintentionally, the card.

This. That is the bottom line.

[JohnP0621]

I once purchased a Ty Cobb Silk at the Philly Show 2 years ago that was graded by GAI 4 . After the purchase I took it directly to the SGC table in the original slab to have it re-graded by SGC.,The item came back as altered. I contacted the seller and asked for a refund . The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case. The seller took back the card and gave the full refund . I knew when I purchased the card that a lot of GAI cards come back as altered when submitted to SGC or PSA. I also knew that if the card came back in the same grade it would have been worth more $$$ in the SGC slab. But I was also aware that if I cracked it out before submitting and it came back altered the Gamble would be on me 100%
and I would not expect the seller to take any of the responsibility .
I think in this case both parties should take a part of the responsibility
The buyer took a big gamble and lost . Also hard to believe that the seller didn't think the card might have been altered when listed as Near Mint.

John P

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case.

And if PWCC said this, EVERYBODY on this site would say: "So you can try to resell the altered card as a nicely graded card to the next sucker, right?!"

If the card was altered and being misrepresented in that GAI 7 holder, the buyer did all of us, and hobbyists yet unborn, a favor. One less mis-graded card out there.

[bounce]

if the card was not returned in the GAI holder, it's not what was sold.

It may take a lot of effort, but items like this have to be returned in the condition in which they were sold.

Once it returned, take pictures and send them in, compared to the original pictures of how it was sold. Again, may take a while but you'll have a good chance of not having to accept the return if it's not returned as sent - and this one clearly wasn't.

However, this situation also demonstrates just how much more complicated all these altered cards are making the hobby now.

[ullmandds]

I have had a few GAI graded cards over the years...a 33 delong gehrig that DID grade out with SGC.

If you play the game...you have to accept the risks.

[wondo]

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by wondo

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.

Getting a free shot at a lottery ticket SHOULD NOT be allowed. The seller isn't getting back what he sold. Not at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Getting a free shot at a lottery ticket SHOULD NOT be allowed. The seller isn't getting back what he sold. Not at all.

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Why does the OP refuse to disclose the name of this Buyer? He has been asked several times.

We can block this buyer so that we don't have it happen to us.

So the OP confirmed what card it is, and a good number of board members have been able to identify random altered cards sold by PWCC, so why can't someone other than the OP just identify the buyer with 11332 feedback on Ebay? There can't be all that many people card buyers with that volume of feedback.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

Peter,

I disagree with the inference that the seller received his original goods back and that it is for the greater good. How would you address the argument that a card in a GAI slab, at this stage of the game, is assumed to be altered?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He's getting back (I presume) the same card, just without the probably incorrect slab which would make it easier for him to resell (without disclosure?) the probably altered card.

The slab isn't/wasn't incorrect. Someone at GAI gave the opinion that the card was Near Mint.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wondo

Peter,

I disagree with the inference that the seller received his original goods back and that it is for the greater good. How would you address the argument that a card in a GAI slab, at this stage of the game, is assumed to be altered?

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

Right. The only reason the seller might care is that he can no longer mis-represent his altered card as a "7".

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

I don't know that it adds any value over a raw card - but shouldn't that be for the owner to decide?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If that's the case, why does it add any value over a raw card? Why should the seller care?

when the card was removed...damage may have occurred. The card the OP is receiving may or may not be in the same condition as it was when encased.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

you assume every collector/investor is interested in playing the game with the TPG'ers. Personally I am not! I will not waste/spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to keep "trying" for a better grade.

You can't assume this is every seller's motive?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wondo

I don't know that it adds any value over a raw card - but shouldn't that be for the owner to decide?

I have already stated ebay should not allow the return. I have moved on to a different angle which is whether I feel badly for the seller.

[slightlyrounded]

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have already stated ebay should not allow the return. I have moved on to a different angle which is whether I feel badly for the seller.

I don’t think that issue is black / white.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

Not apples to apples...

First off, PSA is anything but infallible. They are the ones who’ve mistakenly numerically graded those thousands of PWCC and other altered cards. They have made more “mistakes” and issued more false numerical grades than anyone. So why is their word the word of God? It’s amazing that despite the mountain of indisputable evidence, people are still hypnotized by them.

Secondly, the card was sold with a proper description in a GAI Holder. It was not returned in the same state. You cannot tamper with an item and then return it, when you failed to realize the desired personal gain.

Lastly, the apparent narrowing of the card towards the bottom is due to the way and the angle by which it was photographed. It is called a parallax view, and is a common phenomenon when photographing at an angle. The portion closest to the camera lens will appear larger than the portion that’s further away.

If the card was scanned in a more traditional manner, you’d see that it is symmetrical. Bottom line is that the buyer took advantage of the system, at the expense of the seller. I hope his name is disclosed, for the sake of our collecting community.

[Rhotchkiss]

You crack, no give back.

No disclosure (of buyer), no pity.

[Bill77]

Just a hypothetical question, If the card came back as a PSA 5 it would have been worth what the buyer paid according to the PSA pricing of the card, so if the card had come back with a grade of 5 or less would the buyer still have tried to return the card knowing he would not have made any profit on a similar or higher PSA grade for the card?

[Mark17]

I think a lot of people here, if they want to be consistent on principle, need to revise some of their posts in the dozens of threads involving sellers peddling altered cards in high-grade TPG holders.

I am not saying the OP knew that was the case.

Now that the card is out of its holder, second, third, fourth opinions can be rendered. If it is in fact altered, then the buyer avoided being taken and that is a good thing for everybody, especially future owners of that card.

As was noted by many, in previous posts, grading/authenticating cannot be done very accurately when a card is in a holder, so cracking it out was required to reveal the true condition of the card.

Disclaimers:

1. Had PSA said it was unaltered, but low grade, I would side with the seller. Numeric grade is opinion. Altered is a different story.

2. If GAI's standards were such that an altered card could still receive a "7" grade, then I would side with the seller.

3. If it turns out the card is not conclusively determined to be altered, I would side with the seller.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wondo

I don’t think that issue is black / white.

Let me ask you this, John. Suppose PSA had rejected the card in the slab and the buyer returned it in the slab. Is the seller obligated to disclose that fact when he puts the card back up?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

You are assuming he was trying to cross over. He may have been trying to authenticate. Whatever his motivation, he discovered the card was doctored. I'll bet there are a lot of big smiles at PWCC headquarters right now, seeing how many people think that when a buyer buys a high graded card but receives a doctored one instead, he should be stuck with it, period.

And that, when trying to determine authenticity/alterations, the card must remain in the plastic brick.

Look, I basically agree that returns must be the same item in the same condition. But when deception in the form of alteration (not on the part of the seller, but alteration nevertheless) is discovered, THAT is where it's no longer an apples to apples argument.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let me ask you this, John. Suppose PSA had rejected the card in the slab and the buyer returned it in the slab. Is the seller obligated to disclose that fact when he puts the card back up?

In a perfect world, yes, that would be the ethical thing to do. But since the prevailing sentiment is that PSA is fallible; how pertinent is that information?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wondo

In a perfect world, yes, that would be the ethical thing to do. But since the prevailing sentiment is that PSA is fallible; how pertinent is that information?

I think it's still material, people can assess for themselves what it means. But without disclosure you wouldn't know.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by toolifedave

Sent back to me unslabbed by PSA since they said the card was altered and I guess the buyer didn't want it slabbed authentic

Did PSA indicate what alteration was done? Sorry if you’ve already posted this info and I missed it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

How many major cards in another company's holder have you successfully crossed? How many were GAI?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

Somewhere in here is a statement purportedly by Ebay that GAI is not an approved service which would imply that PSA, SGC and Beckett holders would be treated differently.

[Joe Hunter]

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

well said

[toolifedave]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

Thank you Joe , well said

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many major cards in another company's holder have you successfully crossed? How many were GAI?

C'mon Peter, that's immaterial. Just because we think it gives us a better chance at achieving our goal doesn't mean it's ethical to do it at someone else's expense. Cracking isn't supposed to change anything, and that would be the official line you would get from any TPG, so taking it upon yourself to do so without accepting the consequences is wrong.

[toolifedave]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Did PSA indicate what alteration was done? Sorry if you’ve already posted this info and I missed it.

No

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

In other threads, I thought a lot of people were insisting that cards cannot be accurately assessed while in plastic holders. Viewing the edges, specifically, but also the thickness and texture of the cards cannot be determined with an entombed card.

Which brings up an interesting question: Suppose you send a card to PSA in a different holder. You tell them you don't want them to do anything unless it crosses. They decide it will cross, break it out of the old case to put into theirs, but at that point they notice the edges are newly cut. What would they do?

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by Mark17

In other threads, I thought a lot of people were insisting that cards cannot be accurately assessed while in plastic holders. Viewing the edges, specifically, but also the thickness and texture of the cards cannot be determined with an entombed card.

Which brings up an interesting question: Suppose you send a card to PSA in a different holder. You tell them you don't want them to do anything unless it crosses. They decide it will cross, break it out of the old case to put into theirs, but at that point they notice the edges are newly cut. What would they do?

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

Whatever the wrong thing to do is!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer to this.

Right. Exactly. And we probably mostly agree that they should not cross a card they now know is altered.

But..... suppose that happened in this case? What would be the difference if PSA was the ones who cracked the card, initially thinking it would cross, then, when able to closely inspect it, saw that they could not......

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Right. Exactly. And we probably mostly agree that they should not cross a card they now know is altered.

But..... suppose that happened in this case? What would be the difference if PSA was the ones who cracked the card, initially thinking it would cross, then, when able to closely inspect it, saw that they could not......

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.