Were the T210's actually a 1910 issue or were they issued in 1911?

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Patrick, it is almost certain that the cabinets came after the T210 cards. They include two players listed for Petersburg that appear on T210 cards for Portsmouth. As I mentioned in a prior post, Lipset reports that that the team moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, but all T210 players show Portsmouth--they do not show the team change. Surely the cards would have noted the change if they came after the cabinets.

That sounds correct. You also have this clipping to connect the actual photographs to before 4/27/1910 from the Carolina Association, Eastern Carolina League, and very likely the Virginia League. If one was to believe the ledger is indicating H801-7 began shipping 5/6/1910, then it seems we have this pinned down to an exact sequence of dates. If the move wasn't until July 1910 those specific cabinets may have shipped later. The more I look at that ledger, the "began shipping 3/17/1910" is when T210 distribution began. It's right there in handwriting. We already know that some of the T210-8 images match cards produced in 1909. Are there other 1909 images in T210? It is directly next to the picture coupon which is related to T210 and there is no indication that it is T206. The writing above that is next to the T206 coupon. The discontinued date aligns with the end of the "Texas League baseball pictures" ads almost exactly. The discontinued date is even three days after that clipping that describes that fine gentlemen from Old Mill planning to visit Greenville with some gifts. Again, the discontinued date is directly next to the T210 coupon, not the T206 coupon. All of that information certainly confirms 1910 for me, amazing what all of those clippings and other pieces of information can reveal. That ledger looks spot on.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Yeah, I had seen that earlier. "Some time ago" people were able to get the H801-7s during the distribution of T210. The visitation by the Old Mill representative was after the main distribution through the cases, during the 1910 season. These cabinets were used to draw a customer into a product that looked very similar to it, they would not have shipped with cards that looked absolutely nothing like the cabinets. T210 Series 2, 5, and 7 are very closely connected in more ways than one, such as T209-2. Geographically speaking, they were also at the core of the Old Mill factory in Virginia. Those series consist of the Virginia League, Carolina Association, and East Carolina League. It's one piece to the puzzle.

Check out post #9 in the link for the method of distribution of H801-7:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=171131

Again, please reference post #21 in this thread:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=232761

T210-8 tells a very interesting story in relation to T211 and some issues that seem earlier such as Hindu SL. You have to dissect the T210 set in pieces. The pieces tell the story.

I don't see anything in those two threads that change my opinion.

Originally Posted by oldeboo

That sounds correct. You also have this clipping to connect the actual photographs to before 4/27/1910 from the Carolina Association, Eastern Carolina League, and very likely the Virginia League. If one was to believe the ledger is indicating H801-7 began shipping 5/6/1910, then it seems we have this pinned down to an exact sequence of dates. If the move wasn't until July 1910 those specific cabinets may have shipped later. The more I look at that ledger, the "began shipping 3/17/1910" is when T210 distribution began. It's right there in handwriting. We already know that some of the T210-8 images match cards produced in 1909. Are there other 1909 images in T210? It is directly next to the picture coupon which is related to T210 and there is no indication that it is T206. The writing above that is next to the T206 coupon. The discontinued date aligns with the end of the "Texas League baseball pictures" ads almost exactly. The discontinued date is even three days after that clipping that describes that fine gentlemen from Old Mill planning to visit Greenville with some gifts. Again, the discontinued date is directly next to the T210 coupon, not the T206 coupon. All of that information certainly confirms 1910 for me, amazing what all of those clippings and other pieces of information can reveal. That ledger looks spot on.

This all coincides with T206's it even states one Nat'l and 1 southern league picture.

This is just my opinion you don't have to accept. I see evidence that at the very least some of the T210's appear to have been distributed in 1911 I haven't seen one thing that convinces me they were distributed in 1910 like an ad or newspaper clip on the distribution. There are clips that they took the pictures in 1910 but to me that's not proof they distributed them in 1910. The T206 pictures were taken long before they printed the T206's it states that in the Ball letter, they had the pictures before they even attempted to get permission to use them.

[oldeboo]

The ledger entry format is brand name at the top of the page, an item from that brand, then directly next to it and inline with the top of that item the information begins.

Take a look at some of the entries:
https://t206resource.com/Ledger%20Page%20Gallery.html

The 3/17/1910 date is exactly where it should be as a description next to the coupon that coincides with T210. The same for the discontinued date. It is not near the above T206 references at all, there is a very clear space and it was intentionally written directly next to the T210 related coupon. Then the cabinet entry is directly below the coupon for that specific cabinet.

We just aren't seeing the same ledger.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

The ledger entry format is brand name at the top of the page, an item from that brand, then directly next to it and inline with the top of that item the information begins.

Take a look at some of the entries:
https://t206resource.com/Ledger%20Page%20Gallery.html

The 3/17/1910 date is exactly where it should be as a description next to the coupon that coincides with T210. The same for the discontinued date. It is not near the above T206 references at all, there is a very clear space and it was intentionally written directly next to the T210 related coupon. Then the cabinet entry is directly below the coupon for that specific cabinet.

We just aren't seeing the same ledger.

I disagree I think the writing underneath that is for the T210 "related" coupon and the 3/17/1910 is for the T206's we know from what you and I both posted that they didn't even have the pictures taken for the T210's at that time.

The coupon also say's ready to mail April 1 1910
Old Mill Ledger page - Copy - Copy.jpg

[oldeboo]

The T210 set is very robust and has more subjects than t206, it was a process. There were images used in the T210 set that directly coincide with cards printed in 1909. Those would have been the first wave to be distributed, in my opinion. I don't think they would have sat on those images until 1911 to release a set of a ton of players no longer on certain teams, just my opinion. The Greminger examples below, that I've found online, are one instance of this and there are many more. The photo shoots that we have seen mentioned are related to other series and distributions.

I added a copy of how I am seeing the ledger, just incase I'm not saying what I'm trying to convey. This is so others can see what I'm seeing. Heck, maybe I'm not right. That's all, that's what I see. That is how I interpret the ledger entries. I know I'm not convincing you. I hope we both understand it's just good conversation about something we are both curious about. I feel like I've learned a lot, but not everything.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

The T210 set is very robust and has more subjects than t206, it was a process. There were images used in the T210 set that directly coincide with cards printed in 1909. Those would have been the first wave to be distributed, in my opinion. I don't think they would have sat on those images until 1911 to release a set of a ton of players no longer on certain teams, just my opinion. The Greminger examples below, that I've found online, are one instance of this and there are many more. The photo shoots that we have seen mentioned are related to other series and distributions.

I added a copy of how I am seeing the ledger, just incase I'm not saying what I'm trying to convey. This is so others can see what I'm seeing. Heck, maybe I'm not right. That's all, that's what I see. That is how I interpret the ledger entries. I know I'm not convincing you. I hope we both understand it's just good conversation about something we are both curious about. I feel like I've learned a lot, but not everything.

Whenever they made a change in the packing they entered the packing and shipping dates for those changes your diagram is missing when they only packed the Major League subjects.
entries.jpg

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Whenever they made a change in the packing they entered the packing and shipping dates for those changes your diagram is missing when they only packed the Major League subjects.

I don't think they would have put a SL and Major League in a pack designated exclusively for T210, just my opinion. There is no mention of any subjects next to the spot in the ledger designated for T210. Certainly above, indeed there were SL and Major League in T206. I'm missing the notation that correlates with the bottom coupon for T210. You almost have me convinced this massive T210 set never existed and ATC only distributed T206.