Cooperstown needs to terminate relationship with the writers

Aquarian Sports Cards · #1 10-08-2022, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

It really varies by what we mean precisely with imprecise words. I would consider "lowering the standard" to be guys who are near the bottom of their positions AND shouldn't be in, not necessarily the absolute worst at their position. A player who is below the average is not a bad selection; half the hall will be below average. I think the key is one of the worst at their position in and does not pass a deeper test is a good general standard. There are more I would not have voted for, but I don't see as being poor choices, just difference preferences others have to weigh certain things more than I weigh them. A 20 second glance at each year gave me this list:

Jack Morris
Harold Baines
Bill Mazeroski
Dennis Eckersley
Bruce Sutter
Effa Manley
Alex Pompez
Dick Williams
Billy Southworth
Joe Gordon
Jim Rice
Whitey Herzog
Bud Selig
Alan Trammell
Lee Smith
Buck O'Neil (Yes I like him too, before someone flips out. Being likable and telling good stories is not a qualification).

David Ortiz is a separate category, my objection is to the utter and absolute hypocrisy.

I generally like your list though I'm a little more accepting of Trammell and Eck and MAYBE Smith. They're borderline, but to me possibly on the right side of the border. Of course that brings me to my eternal argument, if Alan Trammell is voted in by the writers how the hell does Lou Whitaker fall off the ballot in his second year of eligibility???

Mike D. · #2 10-08-2022, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Of course that brings me to my eternal argument, if Alan Trammell is voted in by the writers how the hell does Lou Whitaker fall off the ballot in his second year of eligibility???

I'm really interested to see if this is the vets vote where Whitaker gets on the ballot and gets in. This is going to be a really interesting vets vote...lots of way the nominating committee could go.

G1911 · #3 10-08-2022, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I generally like your list though I'm a little more accepting of Trammell and Eck and MAYBE Smith. They're borderline, but to me possibly on the right side of the border. Of course that brings me to my eternal argument, if Alan Trammell is voted in by the writers how the hell does Lou Whitaker fall off the ballot in his second year of eligibility???

While I don�t support either of their candidacies, (both fine players for a long time but with little to no statistical highlights, a little above league average bats and excellent defense just isn�t quite enough I think), I have no idea why Trammell is in and Whitaker is not. They really seem like a package pair, and I�d bet Whitaker gets in eventually via the era committees. Whitaker had the slightly better bat compared to the league and Trammell gets the slight boost of being a SS as opposed to a 2B.

On a side note, I wonder if there has ever been a better team than those Tigers that did not have a hall worthy player. Morris and Trammel have made it but I don�t think either is a good selection. They put together an excellent team with a ton of excellent and many underrated players, but no real Hall talent or superstar.

The one on here I was hesitant to put is Lee Smith. He was not dominating and I do not think he is a hall worthy player, but he did hold a significant career record for a long time, and so I can see him being included by the �Lou Brock standard�.

steve B · #4 10-08-2022, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

While I don�t support either of their candidacies, (both fine players for a long time but with little to no statistical highlights, a little above league average bats and excellent defense just isn�t quite enough I think), I have no idea why Trammell is in and Whitaker is not. They really seem like a package pair, and I�d bet Whitaker gets in eventually via the era committees. Whitaker had the slightly better bat compared to the league and Trammell gets the slight boost of being a SS as opposed to a 2B.

On a side note, I wonder if there has ever been a better team than those Tigers that did not have a hall worthy player. Morris and Trammel have made it but I don�t think either is a good selection. They put together an excellent team with a ton of excellent and many underrated players, but no real Hall talent or superstar.

The one on here I was hesitant to put is Lee Smith. He was not dominating and I do not think he is a hall worthy player, but he did hold a significant career record for a long time, and so I can see him being included by the �Lou Brock standard�.

I'd be fine with as a friend called him Lee "lets make it interesting" Smith not being in the hall. So many times he'd enter with a lead and make it a much closer game.

Mike D. · #5 10-08-2022, 03:20 PM

It seems like a lot of the "Hall of Fame has gone to hell" conversation is actually a "Don't like relievers in the Hall" conversation, or at least a "The Wrong Relievers are in the Hall of Fame".

There's only eight relievers in the HOF, and that's if you count Eck, who also started 361 games.

Rivera is the consensus "best ever", and I don't see a lot of arguments that he shouldn't be in (other than the occasional "all relievers are failed starters" thing).

The other six are Whilhelm, Gossage, Smith, Hoffman, Fingers, and Sutter.

I guess I'm not sure where the line is, and not sure there's any consensus on that.

I for one think Billy Wagner and Joe Nathan are Hall of Fame closers, and if I look at Frankie Rodriguez, I can see an argument. And could guys like Jansen and Kimbrel get there? I think so.

jayshum · #6 10-08-2022, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I generally like your list though I'm a little more accepting of Trammell and Eck and MAYBE Smith. They're borderline, but to me possibly on the right side of the border. Of course that brings me to my eternal argument, if Alan Trammell is voted in by the writers how the hell does Lou Whitaker fall off the ballot in his second year of eligibility???

Trammell was voted in by one of the recent iterations of the Veterans Committee, specifically the Modern Baseball Era Committee, in 2018. The closest he got with the writers voting was 40.9% in 2016 which was his last year on the ballot.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #7 10-08-2022, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Trammell was voted in by one of the recent iterations of the Veterans Committee, specifically the Modern Baseball Era Committee, in 2018. The closest he got with the writers voting was 40.9% in 2016 which was his last year on the ballot.

Sorry I thought he was elected his last year, but still how does he stay on the ballot for 15 years and Whitaker falls off in 2.

Mike D. · #8 10-08-2022, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Sorry I thought he was elected his last year, but still how does he stay on the ballot for 15 years and Whitaker falls off in 2.

It's a fair question...Trammell was a 6-time All Star & 4-time GG winner. Whitaker won 5 and 3, respectively, so it's not like Trammell was that much more highly regarded at the time.

What's even crazier is that is that Whitaker hasn't been elected in the years since....highly overdue.

jayshum · #9 10-08-2022, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Sorry I thought he was elected his last year, but still how does he stay on the ballot for 15 years and Whitaker falls off in 2.

That I don't have an answer for. Whitaker actually dropped off the ballot after his first year in 2001 when he got 2.9% of the vote. Trammell debuted the following year on the ballot with 15.7% and didn't get above 20% until his 9th year. Analytics weren't as big 20 years ago when they both debuted on the ballot so not sure why Trammell did that much better than Whitaker. Their raw numbers seem similar enough that you would have expected them to be voted on more similarly.

Mike D. · #10 10-11-2022, 04:09 PM

I just wrote an article on the new candidates for this upcoming election, if anyone is interested.

Cardlines Guide to the 2023 Baseball Hall of Fame First-Time Candidates

frankbmd · #11 10-12-2022, 09:30 AM

As Yogi Berra once said,

"Folks don't go to Cooperstown any more, its too crowded."

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