Some of the mysteries and myths surrounding the most famous card in the hobby.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Greg,

With all due respect, I think you might underestimate the ability of skilled counterfeiters to manufacture fakes that can pass THE MOST STRINGENT VISUAL TESTS, a lesson I learned the hard way. This card is not like any other T206 that has ever surfaced. It is a NrMt-Mt Wagner with NO PROVENANCE. Maybe to you the burden is on the prospective buyer to prove it is fake. But to me, the burden is on the seller to prove it is real, and with no provenance, the way to do it is with forensic testing. Or, to say it another way, you keep saying there is no evidence the card is not real. To my way of looking at it, the evidence that it is not real is not materially weaker than the evidence it is real. We really don't know for sure either way.

I earlier stated my prediction that high quality fakes will eventually ruin the hobby, and I even outlined what I thought would need to be done. You and others are alleging a 40-70 year history of these amazing fake T cards already happening, but cannot show any evidence whatsoever; just a vague gossip theory with no names, no consistent timeframe, no evidence, none at all. Quite the cover up for $25,000! If I am underestimating this ability, please educate me. What is the evidence this actually happened even one single time? With all due respect, I think you are underestimating the importance of following the evidence, instead of jumping to whatever conclusion strikes your fancy.

How many T206 cards can we trace their histories back to 1909-1911? It’s a tiny, tiny percentage. I don’t believe there is more than maybe one or two Wagners we can trace all the way back, though I could be wrong, I am not one of the guys who has catalogued every known Wagner and followed them. This is how MOST of them have appeared, they get found. Should I just assume all of my t cards are fakes because I don’t have the full provenance history? Can you trace the provenance to the period for all your cards? Do you believe any you cannot are fake? Or this is an invented standard set only for this one card, designed to justify the conclusion since there is clearly no real evidence?

Again, like it or not, the evidence is not equal. We have the eye test and that everyone who has examined the card, which is a lot of knowledgeable people, is convinced it is genuine. I have never handled the card myself, and even if I had, would not appeal to my own authority. We have no evidence whatsoever, which I have repeatedly begged for, that it is fake. You can ignore the evidence and believe the conspiracy theory, that’s your right, but I can see no rational reason for me to suspend logic and the rules of evidence to subscribe to this theory of a card fraud conspiracy and the perfect crime when there is no evidence. May we be rational men. An evidentiary basis, that if we are to believe something there should be evidence for it, is not some new thing I have invented. It is the time honored western approach to knowledge, for over two millennia. If I ignored the evidence to just believe whatever conspiracy theory strikes my fancy, I would be a fool. The issue here is an issue of fact, of history. Evidence is not always perfect, but there’s not a tiny shred of it at all for this. Perhaps the evidence of eyes and ears, as they say, are wrong, but there needs to be some actual reason to jump to this conclusion. If I had conducted research this way I would have been laughed out of university.

Again, I am all ears and eagerly await the production of any evidence whatsoever, for this card fraud, for the allegedly-totally-real research showing it was not found in Florida but in NY, and for anything else. I would think there is a reason none of this has been produced. Because one is a conspiracy theory without a shred of evidence to be given, and the other was an untruth. I would love to be corrected by the production of any evidence. Any. Please!