Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Total speculation but I could see some employee opportunistically/impulsively taking the box, panicking once he realized the FBI was involved and this was a big deal, and destroying the evidence. Hard to see how this could have been an inside job especially given another box of catalogues from a different AH apparently was also tampered with.

On this line of thinking...since the auction ran that created a whole alternative line or lines of possibilities...as others pointed out pages back several items were bid way up from recent previous comps...yes I know that happens all the time but think of it this way as pointed out previously...what if those were the stolen cards...then the FBI has to investigate the bidders of those cards and the cosigners I would imagine wouldnt they? If they had nothing to do with this mess then that is wasted time and energy

Again the best course of action would have been to immediately cancel the auction and inform the parties involved.

Thomas Saunders

[ThomasL]

...also what is the probability that the FBI is monitoring this thread as we speak...

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

...also what is the probability that the FBI is monitoring this thread as we speak...

And the thieves...

[evergreen1988]

Maybe a different point of discussion, what does this event mean for the industry and other auction houses generally, or even the insurance companies? A $2mm loss/payout changes things.

1. Will the insurance provider survive the payout, assuming they make one? Will there be any changes to policies? Additional restrictions or requirements? Will rates go up?
   
2. Will auction houses change their liability limits to theft or other issues? If so, how does a consignor secure their interests when listing with an auction house? I've never consigned anything, but what are the current limits?
   
3. Will auction houses cut back on what they bring to shows? I've personally bid after seeing something in person at a show and its always been cool to see some rare stuff.
   
4. What impact will this have on ML? Even if they recover the cards today and every buyer follows through and receives their purchases by Friday, almost as if this never happened, will consignors be concerned with ML's stability or decision making? More competition in the auction space is probably good, so this can only be negative.
   
5. Will/should there be changes to security at shows, especially the smaller ones? Will other dealers be reluctant to bring their best material, especially if insurance policies change?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

...also what is the probability that the FBI is monitoring this thread as we speak...

approximately 100%
.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Again the best course of action would have been to immediately cancel the auction and inform the parties involved.

Thank you! The only course of action!

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

On this line of thinking...since the auction ran that created a whole alternative line or lines of possibilities...as others pointed out pages back several items were bid way up from recent previous comps...yes I know that happens all the time but think of it this way as pointed out previously...what if those were the stolen cards...then the FBI has to investigate the bidders of those cards and the cosigners I would imagine wouldnt they? If they had nothing to do with this mess then that is wasted time and energy

Again the best course of action would have been to immediately cancel the auction and inform the parties involved.

Thomas Saunders

Following this reasoning wouldn’t the actual consigners benefit the most as their payouts from an insurance claim be based on the card(s) price run ups? Edit: intent is to illustrate following the OPs argument, this would be nonsensical and absurd.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Following this reasoning wouldn’t the actual consigners benefit the most as their payouts from an insurance claim be based on the card(s) price run ups?

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I honestly think bunswickreeves was making the point that it makes no sense for the auction company to participate in running things up because they wouldn't benefit. I don't think he was implying any wrongdoing, actually the contrary. Of course I've been wrong before.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I honestly think bunswickreeves was making the point that it makes no sense for the auction company to participate in running things up because they wouldn't benefit. I don't think he was implying any wrongdoing, actually the contrary. Of course I've been wrong before.

Perhaps, and if that’s the case, I apologize. But there have been many bravdo, know-it-all, irresponsible, etc statements made on this thread by people who don’t know facts, don’t know law (even though they act like the Supreme Court of internet chat boards), and, I think, don’t understand the potential damage and offense of their public musings, accusations, and assumptions; and, I believe, several are well aware of the offense.

For the benefit of the hobby and this community, I have tried to be open and communicative as a consignor about what I know and think on the matter. But this will be my last post on this thread. I will not update this board on how things turn out on my end- the peanut gallery ain’t worth it and I sure as hell don’t want to hear anyone’s opinion on the matter.

[Leon]

I don't blame you.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Perhaps, and if that’s the case, I apologize. But there have been many bravdo, know-it-all, irresponsible, etc statements made on this thread by people who don’t know facts, don’t know law (even though they act like the Supreme Court of internet chat boards), and, I think, don’t understand the potential damage and offense of their public musings, accusations, and assumptions; and, I believe, several are well aware of the offense.

For the benefit of the hobby and this community, I have tried to be open and communicative as a consignor about what I know and think on the matter. But this will be my last post on this thread. I will not update this board on how things turn out on my end- the peanut gallery ain’t worth it and I sure as hell don’t want to hear anyone’s opinion on the matter.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't blame you.

+1.

Certainly, an unfortunate situation but the discussion seems to greatly overlook the real criminal here is the thief.

I have dealt with Memory Lane for MANY years and they have always been upfront and professional.

[tjisonline]

Great call Ryan. I’m so sorry you and the other consigners are going through this. Best wishes going forward w/ this situation.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Perhaps, and if that’s the case, I apologize. But there have been many bravdo, know-it-all, irresponsible, etc statements made on this thread by people who don’t know facts, don’t know law (even though they act like the Supreme Court of internet chat boards), and, I think, don’t understand the potential damage and offense of their public musings, accusations, and assumptions; and, I believe, several are well aware of the offense.

For the benefit of the hobby and this community, I have tried to be open and communicative as a consignor about what I know and think on the matter. But this will be my last post on this thread. I will not update this board on how things turn out on my end- the peanut gallery ain’t worth it and I sure as hell don’t want to hear anyone’s opinion on the matter.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I honestly think bunswickreeves was making the point that it makes no sense for the auction company to participate in running things up because they wouldn't benefit. I don't think he was implying any wrongdoing, actually the contrary. Of course I've been wrong before.

Yep exactly +1. I’m in no way intending to imply any wrongdoing on anyone’s part.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

And you would've gotten away with it to, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dog!

[brad31]

What a crazy situation. My thoughts:

1) Somebody advised Memory Lane to complete the auction to establish value.
2) if consigners are paid the amount the items would have been sold for less agreed upon fees then they have handled a crappy situation as well as cold have been done.
3) if Memory Lane’s policy covers this loss then they were responsible in how they handled the cards - they did nothing with the cards that would prevent them from full compensation.
4) The winning bidders are getting hosed but this is unavoidable - there is no such thing as a victimless crime.

2 above is the biggest key - Memory Lane needs to make things right for the “owners” of the cards (consigners) at the time of the loss from theft. They can go after Best Western, insurance, etc. but their direct business hinges on safeguarding the items being auctioned. If Best Western is found liable (which I doubt) this is a small ancillary part of their business and will have little/no effect in them.

3 above is a moot point as long as Memory Lane does number 2.

The thief is the problem. Everyone else are victims - but the buck stops at Memory Lane to pay their consigners in a reasonable amount of time.

I think the cards are likely to be recovered because pretty much the only way for that not to happen at some point in the future is the perpetrator to dispose of them.

[parkplace33]

It will be be interesting to see what material auction houses bring to the National and other cards shows this year and if this theft (and other thefts) affects that. I expect them to bring less that what they have brought in the past. The risk now outweighs the gain in my opinion.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

It will be be interesting to see what material auction houses bring to the National and other cards shows this year and if this theft (and other thefts) affects that. I expect them to bring less that what they have brought in the past. The risk now outweighs the gain in my opinion.

1. I doubt it has any impact on what is brought.

2. I don't doubt it will have an impact on HOW it's brought.

The only exception to point one might be if a consignor requests his items not to travel, but that really isn't in their best interests as promoting the items is the real job of the auction company.

[Jewish-collector]

This whole situation might mean auction houses will never bring the really great cards to showcase. Maybe they will have enlarged heavy cardboard photocopies or power point presentations.

[Yoda]

A global outfit like Great Western will have a master policy in place that will provide a difference in conditions and limits over local hotels everywhere. The local GW hotel to where the cards were shipped will have coverage locally as well as under the master policy. Once the property claim has been settled, the carrier is legally free to subrogate against BW for their failure to protect guests lives and (ML) property, their primary legal obligation. The carrier will seek subrogation not against the local hotel but the parent co. Of course, this assumes the cards are never recovered.
GW also has the right to subrogate against anyone involved in the theft. For example, if the thief is apprehended then GW could start litigation against him, although good luck on that one. He probably doesn't have a pot to piss in.
Since it is a police matter as well, it is going to be a complicated claim. The statutory state Innkeepers Liability Law is a minor piece in all this. It is more designed for the guy who claims that his load of dirty laundry has been lost than the lady who claims her precious 10K diamond ring was stolen in the hotel. That's why the limit is so low.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

1. I doubt it has any impact on what is brought.

2. I don't doubt it will have an impact on HOW it's brought.

The only exception to point one might be if a consignor requests his items not to travel, but that really isn't in their best interests as promoting the items is the real job of the auction company.

I would argue that the added value for the consigner of having their cards brought to a show for display is very low. Likely near-zero, especially if the auction house provides good scans along with complete and accurate descriptions.

I think the added value is almost entirely for the auction house itself. They want to display the cards as bait so they can lure in other high end items for consignment.

That's not intended to be a criticism of the AH. They have to generate business and it's an effective mechanism for doing that. But they're definitely leveraging the property of their consigners to build their business.

I think this is also why, assuming the reporting is accurate, that most of us think that the carelessness with how ML chose to ship and handle these cards (which belonged to their customers and not them) is the greater offense in this entire debacle.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Ryan, I'm hoping for the best for you. You've handled this situation way better than I would have. Good luck to you brother.

[Snapolit1]

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

Since we don't have all the facts, are you suggesting we don't discuss it?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Since we don't have all the facts, are you suggesting we don't discuss it?

No, wasn't saying that.

Just saying don't make shit up that you don't know is true.

[Republicaninmass]

Supreme Court of message boards !

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

Hmmm, kinda reminds of something that had to do with bronze a couple of months ago.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

Very well said.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Ryan, I'm hoping for the best for you. You've handled this situation way better than I would have. Good luck to you brother.

Completely agree; he & I had a nice PM yesterday and retain a good friendship. I clarified my post was in response to another in order to rebut its inference there was consignor/consignee wrongdoing. This terrible situation is indeed being handled with grace and class and hope all are made whole.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Sad that the wild conjecture of some has pushed things this far.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by steve B

Sad that the wild conjecture of some has pushed things this far.

This response to which you’ve replied was based on a misinterpretation. We had a nice PM yesterday and retain a good friendship. I clarified my post was in response to another in order to rebut its inference there was consignor/consignee wrongdoing. This terrible situation is indeed being handled with grace and class and hope all are made whole.

[ullmandds]

what an unfortunate situation.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

This response to which you’ve replied was based on a misunderstanding. We had a nice PM yesterday and retain a good friendship. I clarified my post was in response to another in order to rebut its inference there was consignor/consignee wrongdoing. This terrible situation is indeed being handled with grace and class and hope all are made whole.

Also, mental note to remind the same people saying don’t rush to judgment to do the same when other institutions are involved. Favoritism abounds. Some of the same people saying wait for all the facts have no issue throwing other companies under the bus based on less. A company poorly shipped items and then continued an auction of items it no longer possessed. Those facts are undisputed and create plenty of ground for a reasonable discussion.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Also, mental note to remind the same people saying don’t rush to judgment to do the same when other institutions are involved. Favoritism abounds. Some of the same people saying wait for all the facts have no issue throwing other companies under the bus based on less. A company poorly shipped items and then continued an auction of items it no longer possessed. Those facts are undisputed and create plenty of ground for a reasonable discussion.

I have yet to meet a person in life that does not use favoritism, not a single one.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Misinterpretation. It was nice PM yesterday and retain a good friendship, clarifying my post was in response to another in order to rebut its inference there was consignor/consignee wrongdoing. This terrible situation is indeed being handled with grace and class and hope all are made whole.