Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time

[raulus]

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If they had graded it right the first time, you never would have bought it. Why should you take a hit if the value dropped since then?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If they had graded it right the first time, you never would have bought it. Why should you take a hit if the value dropped since then?

Values are way up since I bought it back in like 2017/2018. Just wish I had gotten this pushed through earlier so that I could have taken advantage of peak values from 12-24 months ago.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

Values are way up since I bought it back in like 2017/2018. Just wish I had gotten this pushed through earlier so that I could have taken advantage of peak values from 12-24 months ago.

Would be very interesting if they try to offer you 2017/2018 compensation values since that's when you bought it. I really hope they don't try to pull that.

I suspect that this thread likely has something to do with why they changed their mind about this card. It's difficult for me to imagine someone as experienced as Reza looking at this card and not catching the recoloring job last time, but we're all human. You'd think if someone sent a card like that in for review of alterations that they would be thorough.

Either way, congrats on what sounds like it will be a satisfactory resolution!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would be very interesting if they try to offer you 2017/2018 compensation values since that's when you bought it. I really hope they don't try to pull that.

I suspect that this thread likely has something to do with why they changed their mind about this card. It's difficult for me to imagine someone as experienced as Reza looking at this card and not catching the recoloring job last time, but we're all human. You'd think if someone sent a card like that in for review of alterations that they would be thorough.

Either way, congrats on what sounds like it will be a satisfactory resolution!

Sounds like part of the issue was just miscommunication, at least as they explained it to me. In their quest to keep the graders from knowing details about who submitted the card, they withheld a lot of information, and so apparently through the ensuing game of telephone, the only request was to focus on the edges.

I'm inclined to trust their reporting here.

At the same time, for those with a conspiracy bent, it's not difficult to let your mind wander into more nefarious explanations. But often my experience is that the simplest explanation is far more likely than something with a lot more moving parts.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

At the same time, for those with a conspiracy bent, it's not difficult to let your mind wander into more nefarious explanations. But often my experience is that the simplest explanation is far more likely than something with a lot more moving parts.

It's not a conspiracy theory though. We have plenty of data to go on at this point. The simplest explanation is that they don't want to admit they are wrong and don't want to pay out on their guarantee.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It's not a conspiracy theory though. We have plenty of data to go on at this point. The simplest explanation is that they don't want to admit they are wrong and don't want to pay out on their guarantee.

Cool cool. I guess I can count myself lucky then.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It's not a conspiracy theory though. We have plenty of data to go on at this point. The simplest explanation is that they don't want to admit they are wrong and don't want to pay out on their guarantee.

Agreed.

[perezfan]

Too bad they couldn't just do the only job they are tasked with the first time around. You should not be the one to take a financial hit for their "mistakes" (at best negligence; at worst dishonesty).

And thank goodness for BODA. Purely for the good of the collecting community (and despite "some people" continually whining about them), they've conducted thousands of hours of painstaking research at zero profit and NO compensation.

Bravo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA explanation seems weak to me, but a good outcome is the most important thing.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA explanation seems weak to me, but a good outcome is the most important thing.

I'll second the notion that a good outcome is paramount.

The adventure to get here was more exciting than it needed to be, but it's hard to kvetch excessively when you finally get to the positive end of the journey. Not that we won't try!

This outcome certainly beats my other available options debated earlier in this thread, none of which really seemed palatable to me.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

Nicolo, glad that this is progressing. I must say that I am floored that they changed their opinion. Please keep us posted on what you and they agree to.

[Johnny630]

Great News !!! Good Job PSA Head Grader Reza!

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

There has been a new development.

On the advice of a friend and fellow collector, I contacted PSA to inquire about whether they could give me some more detail regarding their original quality assurance investigation. Based on the head grader's report, the focus of that investigation had been on scrutinizing the piece for trimming. Based on the original check, no evidence of trimming had been found.

Based on that feedback, I asked PSA to take another look, this time to specifically evaluate whether there had been color added to Mays' arm, and PSA graciously agreed to take another look.

So I sent it in last week, arriving last Thursday, and they expedited the turnaround. I received a call just this morning, with a report that the card is indeed Authentic Altered due to recoloring. Apparently my options are to get it reslabbed as AA, or for them to send it back as raw. Not sure that I have a strong preference either way, although I'm inclined to go with AA, just so there's a record of the new grade, should some enterprising future collector decide to crack it out and attempt to recirculate it as a high grade raw piece.

This is obviously just the first step. I will be working with the PSA team to figure out the correct amount of compensation. While values have come down in the last year or so, it's still a very valuable card. So I'm sure that we'll have good fun in working through those details together.

Just another example of the excellent work done by BODA. It amazes me how some people will continue to dismiss their findings, tell people to never trust online image comparison, suggest they are slandering cards or attempt to silence or discredit their work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Just another example of the excellent work done by BODA. It amazes me how some people will continue to dismiss their findings, tell people to never trust online image comparison, suggest they are slandering cards or attempt to silence or discredit their work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool. I guess you can update the database entry for this one when they send it back in the AA slab.

[Exhibitman]

As a professional cynic, I'd hold the happiness until the money is in hand.

Peter, you are so right on that point. CA does not allow for the recovery of attorneys' fees in civil cases unless there is a contract or a law that provides for it. That makes any lawsuit a self-funded war of attrition with PSA and its wealthy owners. Which is probably why PSA is not concerned with being sued over most altered cards it missed.

If it was my card, I would do one of three things:

1. Sue representing myself and put PSA through a financial meat grinder to force a settlement. Doesn't matter how rich they are if my costs are just my time and some filing fees.

2. Crack the card and resubmit it in person at a National or other show. I would video every step of the process--chain of custody--to prove where the card went every second from in the holder to PSA's custody. if PSA rejects it as altered, it would put PSA in a very uncomfortable position defending the original grade and that might get the case settled quietly and quickly.

3. Sell it as-is with a disclosure to the AH of what happened. Let's be honest here: there is a significant percentage of collectors who do not give a damn what anyone except PSA says and who will simply buy the card for the number on the holder. To them, the rest is just internet trolls stating opinions.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As a professional cynic, I'd hold the happiness until the money is in hand.

Fair enough!

We've agreed in principle on an amount, after a little back and forth. There's some paperwork to be completed, and then they're quoting up to 6 weeks for the check to arrive. I guess they're working off of the AH framework of waiting 6 weeks before they pay out.

Just to be clear - I'm not complaining. PSA obviously has their process, and that will take some time. So it's not surprising that there will be a wait.

But I suppose I'll also wait patiently until the check clears before I get too frisky about reinvesting it in replacement cardboard.