1921-23 E220 National Caramel Dating Re-evaluation

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Mark...consider Cobb kicked off the unverified type 1 team (definitely a type 1 personality, however).

Unverified Type 1 backs:

Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)


I swear I will get to the type 2 backs...just might be a long stretch before I find the time (I wish it would stop hiding from me).

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Finally a chance to rekindle the E220 National Caramel back topic.

Starting off, I have not heard from anyone else in regards to the final four unverified Type 1 backs. The list of unconfirmed subjects remains at:

Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)

Would still love to hear from collectors if they have any of these cards with the type 1 back (for reference Jim's earlier post clearly details with photographs the three types of backs found). I would venture to state that it appears the complete E220 set can be found with the Type 1 back.

Now onto some percentages. I tallied up the E220 card pool available to me, and I currently have catalogued 325 cards total. Of these 325 cards, 257 have the Type 1 back. 19 cards have the Type 2 back, and 51 cards have the Type 2 reversed back. So the current approximate percentages are:

Type 1 back: 79.1%
Type 2 back: 5.8%
Type 2 reversed back: 15.7%

Clearly the type 1 back dominates the card population--currently it appears on four of every five cards seen. The Type 2 appears to be the rarest, with the type 2 reversed being seen three times as often as the regular Type 2.

A point worth repeating is that I have yet to see an individual player's card with all three backs, nor have I seen a particular card with both versions of type 2 backs. This leads me to believe that the entire set was printed with the type 1 backs, and that perhaps both type 2 backs were printed on one separate sheet as well.

Now I would like to tally the specific cards that have been seen with each Type 2 back. I have listed below the ones that have been documented so far with each back, and would like to enlist the assistance of fellow collectors regarding any that they might have in their collections. So here goes:


'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (13 currently):

Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Chas. Hollocher
Walter Johnson
Pete Kildulf (leaping)
Geo. Paskert
V.J. Picinich
Raymond Schmandt
Frank Snyder (standing)
George Whitted (batting)


Reversed Type 2 backs verified (25 currently):

James Austin
George Burns (Cleveland)
John Collins
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
J.C. Graney
Heinie Groh
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Emil Meusel
Bernie Neis
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Zach Wheat
Fred C. Williams
"Pep" Young


Always fun to do a little research, and any help on it would be appreciated too!

Brian

[ethicsprof]

just saw this thread and it's fascinating!!!
many thanks for the efforts.

i have the E220 Type 2 reversed W. Jacobson

all the best,
barry

[Mark]

Brian,
Thanks for continuing to act as a pioneer, scientist, archeologist on this.
I have a small stack of these in another location, but here goes. A couple are dupes, but I will just list them all to help with the population report.

Type 2 regular back

Turner Barber
George Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
Jimmy Ring
James Vaughn

Type 2 reverse back
Babe Adams
Max Carey
John Collins
Jake Daubert
Arthur Fletcher
Rogers Hornsby
Robert Nehf
Darrill Pratt
Eddie Rousch
Casey Stengel
Milton Stock
Aaron Ward

[frohme]

Great thread, Brian!

I have (or had) only 4 - the Snyder may be a contradiction.

Type 2 - reversed
Babe Adams
Aaron Ward

Type 2 Regular
Whitted (batting)
Snyder (catching).

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Barry, Mike and Mark for your contributions. Maybe if we get enough responses we can get a clearer idea that perhaps a good chunk or most of the 120 cards were issued with these backs, but just in smaller quantities.

Of course there always has to be a rule-breaker to monkey with a cool theory that you have spent countless brain cells to formulate. Mike, can you confirm that the Regular Type 2 back Frank Snyder card you have (there are two Frank Snyder cards in the set) is the one that shows him crouching in a catcher's position? Or do you have the one that shows him standing with glove? If it is the crouching, catching pose, then the 'type 2 cards printed on one sheet' theory is less likely (I guess you could have two crouching Snyders with different backs on one sheet).

Here is an updated (12/1/15) listing...keep them coming:


Type 1 backs NOT verified:

Carl Mays


'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (29 currently):

G.C. Alexander
Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
"Red" Faber
Walter Gerber
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Chas. Hollocher
Jimmy Johnston
Pete Kilduff (bending)
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Walter "Buster" Mails
Steve O'Neill
Geo. Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
V.J. Picinich
Jimmy Ring
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Bob Shawkey
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
James Vaughan
Robert Veach
George Whitted (batting)
Arthur Wilson


Reversed Type 2 backs verified (63 currently):

Babe Adams
James Austin
Franklin "Home Run" Baker
Dave Bancroft
George Burns (Cleveland)
Joe Bush
Leon Cadore
Max Carey
Eddie Collins
John Collins
Walton Cruise
George Cutshaw
Jake Daubert
Chas. A Deal
Bill Doak
Joe Dugan
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Ira Flagstead
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
Charles Glazner
J.C. Graney
Heinie Groh
Claude Hendrix
Chas. Hollocher
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Waite Hoyt
Wilbur Hubbell
William Jacobsen
Walter Johnson
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Emil Meusel
Robert Nehf
Bernie Neis
Ivan Olson
Ralph "Cy" Perkins
Scott Perry
Jeff Pfeffer
Wally Pipp
Derill Pratt
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
Raymond Schmandt
Urban Shocker
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Vernon Spencer
Chas. "Casey" Stengle
Milton Stock (fielding)
Aaron Ward
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (fielding)
Fred C. Williams
"Pep" Young
Ross Young


Subjects that have been seen with all three back types:

Chas. Hollocher
Walter "Buster" Mails
Raymond Schmandt
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)




Brian

[frohme]

Hey Brian,

Here's the Snyder I had - I think I understood the back descriptions, type1/2 reversed/not but maybe I've got it wrong.



and the others,

Whitted Fielding (Type 1)


Whitted batting (Type 2 - normal)


Type 2 - reversed
Adams


Ward


--
Mike