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#1
11-16-2015, 08:05 PM
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E220's off the top of my head and onto my back
Thanks Marc for reposting this fun thread...boy was I obviously five years younger back then! I have observed many more subjects of the type 2 and 3 backs, including a couple cards that now have all three backs verified. Unfortunately I can not add anything to the list currently, because it is all buried beneath a stack of moveable objects. When the opportunity arises I will post updated lists.
Brian 
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#2
11-16-2015, 09:15 PM
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Thanks, Brian. I figured that there must be something more current than this. I have also found a few subjects that have all three backs and quite a few others with the Type 2 back. It would certainly seem that there were at least two printings of these, if not three. I'm eager to see your list whenever you get the chance!
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#3
12-01-2015, 11:14 PM
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Verified back listings updated
After sporadic observation over the past few years since the original posting, I have updated the verified back listings for the E220 National Caramel set (see post # 39). We are down to just one Type 1 back (Carl Mays) that has not been verified...I assume it is out there. The verified type 2 backs have grown from 13 subjects to 29, and the Type 2 reversed from 37 to the current 63 subjects verified.
Would love to hear of any more out there, and especially from the re-invigorator of this thread, Marc. Brian Last edited by brianp-beme; 12-01-2015 at 11:35 PM.
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#4
12-02-2015, 10:12 AM
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Getting back to Rhett's original question on the date ... can I ask a dumb question?
Is it possible that the correct date was 1921, not 1922, because these two "rookies" were players that were known to be coming up with certain clubs? I am borrowing the concept from the 1980s garbage where they issued a lot of pre-rookie cards based on players that they knew were going to be in the big leagues in a couple years. Given that there are only two players that debuted in 1922, is it possible these were well-known pre-rookies that were about to make the show ... and the card company just got out in front? I don't know enough about either player to answer that question (maybe they were obscure in 1921), but just given the numbers of players that date to 1922 versus the larger list that dates to 1920/1921 it makes me wonder if there wasn't some early adoption of these two players because they were known future players. Cheers, Ptrick
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#5
12-02-2015, 12:16 PM
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The players in question weren't rookies but were veterans that had changed teams. I looked up when Joe Dugan was dealt to the Red Sox and there was a three team trade that took place January 10, 1922 that landed Dugan in Boston. I haven't checked on any of the other dates.
I love seeing older threads like this get new life and a fresh set of eyes!
__________________
Check out my YouTube Videos highlighting VINTAGE CARDS https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbE..._as=subscriber ebay store: kryvintage-->https://www.ebay.com/sch/kryvintage/...p2047675.l2562
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#6
12-02-2015, 01:48 PM
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E220 musings
Rhett was gracious enough not to complain when I semi-derailed this thread years ago, and it is good to see he holds no grudges.
It is interesting that despite the three different back printings, as noted in detail in this thread, no changes occurred on the front, such as name (Bagbyk would have been an obvious one to change), position, team, etc. It seems more likely that the various printings came in one time frame, such as 1922 as conjectured by Rhett. Of course the printers could have been lazy or not cared...after all these were just stupid baseball cards and the job just a paycheck for some Joe Blow, so they could have been issued in multiple years. I still like Rhett's 1922 estimate as the earliest print date, especially due to the Dugan early 1922 trade to the Red Sox. Brian
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#7
12-04-2015, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com
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#8
12-06-2015, 02:30 PM
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Okay, I have finally sorted through my entire lot and have quite a few new additions to the list. I can confirm the following additions:
Type 1: Mays Type 2: Barber Burns (Cincinnati) Bush Cutshaw Dykes (batting) Chick Fewster Wilson Fewster Heilman Hubbell W. Johnson Kerr Kopf Bob Meusel Olson Type 2 Reversed: Burns (Cincinnati) Coveleskie Cunningham Chick Fewster Griffith Byron Harris Heilman Kelly Liebold Milan Neale Oeschger O'Farrell Rapp Scott Sewell Shannon Stock (batting) Wambsgauss Witt Subjects with all three backs: Chick Fewster Heilman
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#9
12-07-2015, 12:59 AM
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Thanks
Thanks Marc for all the great updates to the back lists. I love the fact that with the Mays we now know the Type 1 backs are available for every card in the set. It also is looking more likely that the 2 Reversed backs might, with more input and observation, also span the entire set. I will update the lists in a day or two, and feel free to chime in.
Brian
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#10
12-07-2015, 10:27 AM
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I wonder if maybe all of the backs are available across the full run but perhaps the regular Type 2 backs were short printed as they certainly appear to be the least common of the three variations. My thought is that there may have been three full printings of the set, one with each of the backs, but the Type 2 and Type 2 reversed were possibly done later and in smaller quantities. The only thing that makes me question that is the inclusion of the few players with two different poses. It would seem odd that they would have two cards of some of the players, all of whom are pretty non-descript. However, both Kilduff poses are found with the Type 2, both Snyders with the Type 2, and both Stocks with the Type 2 reversed, so obviously those were printed in the same run.
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#11
12-07-2015, 02:20 PM
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Updation
Thanks to Marc's input, not only have all 120 cards been verified to have the Type 1 back, but we have been able to add substantially to the verified Type 2 and Type 2 reversed listings. I have updated the listings below.
Brian Type 1 backs have been verified for all 120 cards. 'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (46 currently): G.C. Alexander Turner Barber George Burns (Cincinnati) Joe Bush Wilbur Cooper Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Jimmy Dykes (batting) "Red" Faber Chick Fewster Wilson Fewster Walter Gerber Hank Gowdy Charles Grimm Sam Harris Harry Heilman Chas. Hollocher Wilbert Hubbell Walter Johnson Jimmy Johnston Dick Kerr Pete Kilduff (bending) Pete Kilduff (leaping) Larry Kopf Walter "Buster" Mails Walter "Rabbit" Maranville Bob Meusel Ivan Olson Steve O'Neill Geo. Paskert Roger Peckinpaugh V.J. Picinich Wally Pipp Jimmy Ring Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Maurice Shannon Bob Shawkey Urban Shocker John Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) James Vaughan Robert Veach George Whitted (batting) Arthur Wilson Reversed Type 2 backs verified (88 currently): Babe Adams James Austin Franklin "Home Run" Baker Dave Bancroft George Burns (Cincinnati) George Burns (Cleveland) Joe Bush Leon Cadore Max Carey Eddie Collins John Collins S. Covaleskie Walton Cruise Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Jake Daubert Chas. A Deal Bill Doak Joe Dugan Jimmy Dykes (fielding) Chick Fewster Ira Flagstead Arthur Fletcher Frank Frisch Larry Gardner Walter Gerber Charles Glazner J.C. Graney Tommy Griffith Heinie Groh Byron Harris Sam Harris Harry Heilman Claude Hendrix Chas. Hollocher Harry Hooper Rogers Hornsby Waite Hoyt Wilbert Hubbell William Jacobsen Walter Johnson Geo. "Bingo" Kelly Larry Kopf Harry Leibold H.B. Leonard Walter "Buster" Mails Carl Mays Lee Meadows Emil Meusel J.C. Milan Earl Neale Robert Nehf Bernie Neis Joe Oeschger Robert O'Farrell Ivan Olson Ralph "Cy" Perkins Scott Perry Jeff Pfeffer Wally Pipp Derill Pratt Goldie Rapp Edgar Rice Eddie Rousch Babe Ruth Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Joe Sewell Maurice Shannon Urban Shocker George Sisler Earl Smith John Smith Sherrod Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) Vernon Spencer Chas. "Casey" Stengle Milton Stock (batting) Milton Stock (fielding) Wm. Wambsgauss Aaron Ward Zach Wheat George Whitted (fielding) Fred C. Williams Lawton Witt "Pep" Young Ross Young Subjects that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above...but to make it easier (22 total): George Burns (Cincinnati) Joe Bush Wm. Cunningham George Cutshaw Chick Fewster Walter Gerber Sam Harris Harry Heilman Chas. Hollocher Wilbert Hubbell Walter Johnson Larry Kopf Walter "Buster" Mails Ivan Olson Wally Pipp Raymond Schmandt Everett Scott Maurice Shannon Urban Shocker John Smith Frank Snyder (crouching) Frank Snyder (standing) Last edited by brianp-beme; 06-02-2016 at 01:21 PM. Reason: added 3 total to original Type 2 list, and 5 total to Type 2 Reversed list
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#12
12-09-2015, 02:58 PM
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Great info Brian et al..... Thanks for sharing on a fairly common but still obscure issue.
Quote:
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com
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