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#1
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If it does turn out that the FBI forensics experts deem the pristine Ruths on Hauls of Shame as forgeries (which I firmly believe they all are), that will pretty much be the end of sports autograph collecting. PSA will be tarnished beyond repair, and the lawsuits will likely bankrupt them.
From a common sense perspective, it seems unlikely that such a large quantity of Ruths in that condition would have survived. Also, why did they all surface around the same time (late 90s/early 00s)? Be pretty funny if PSA ends up out of business and Coach's Corner survives. Seems the only way to be sure of your Ruth is to build a time machine, go back to pre-1948, and have him sign it in front of you. Short of that, there will always be questions, which kind of sucks all the fun out of it. |
#2
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The end of sports autograph collecting? Hardly.
How many of those Ruths would have sold for such extraordinarily high prices had they not been vetted by the TPAs? How many would have been rejected by buyers or even the auction houses had they not been given that TPA imprimatur? If those balls are found to be fraudulent--and I, too, believe they will--it is the TPAs who (hopefully) will disappear. Sports autograph collecting (at least for those who educate themselves) will be better for it. |
#3
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I am not an autograph collector so I have no dog in this, but I missed the part where Nash presented any evidence. I am not doubting there are forgeries out there - just saying Nash does nothing here but try to set off alarms IMHO. I take everything that guy says with a grain of salt. Hasn't he been accused of some of the largest memorabilia fraud in the hobby? His Hall of Shame website seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
JimB P.S. I have not read through this whole thread so excuse me if anyone has already said this. |
#4
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It's reasonably obvious that no fewer than three distinct hands were involved in signing those baseballs. Thus, regardless of what Nash has done in the past, at least 2/3 of them are forgeries.
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#5
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that first photo where it shows three distinctly different styles, that says it all for me.
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#6
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Quote:
__________________
Leon Luckey |
#7
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Pots, kettles ... whatever.
Forgers, authenticators and auction houses have been profiteering for years and it's about time they are held accountable. An organized criminal ring? It could be possible in an industry where everybody knows your name [insert Cheers theme song] ... but that will be up to authorities to determine. |
#8
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There are forensic examiners who do excellent work.
Ten years ago I was the instigator of an investigation by the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs into bogus autographs on ebay. I filed a formal complaint with the Dept of Consumer Affairs. A DCA attorney and investigator were assigned to the case. Two autographs were purchased from ebay sellers upon my direction (both purported autographs were of Christy Mathewson). The autographs were submitted to the forensic examiners of the NYC Police Dept. along with exemplars which I supplied. After their examinations they concluded that the autographs were indeed forgeries. The findings were forwarded to the FBI (they were in the midst of Operation Bullpen at the time) and to ebay. About a dozen ebay sellers were removed as a result of this investigation. My feelings are that Peter Nash will be working with forensic examiners who can also do excellent work. I look with interest to their findings. - I am happy to repeat this from an earlier post: that I feel ebay is doing excellent work now in having the site policed and that they are promptly responding to reports of forgeries and crooked sellers.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 12-13-2011 at 10:00 AM. |
#9
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Quote:
that made me laugh out loud. It will be the end for people who collect pretty plastic cases, maybe. Doug Last edited by doug.goodman; 12-13-2011 at 01:18 PM. Reason: sarcasm added |
#10
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I don't feel bad for anyone who drops 50-300 grand on a Babe Ruth "Blazer" just because some dude at ABC Authentication said it was good...same way I don't feel bad for the guy who wrecks his Ferrari while driving 50 miles over the speed limit..it's reckless. Without ROCK SOLID PROVENANCE why would you ever spend that kind of money of something that can, has and always will be faked?
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#11
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Quote:
__________________
Leon Luckey |
#12
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Quote:
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#13
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The people who didn't are idiots. They don't deserve to be defrauded, as that's an illegal act committed against them, but they do deserve to have to put up with the bullshit of trying to get recompense. It's a life lesson that will hopefully be a good one for them.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+ |
#14
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Quote:
YESSS!! I've always wanted to use that line! Now I need to go watch the movie again. Ken |
#15
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And if he didn't want them to be eaten, he wouldn't have made them out of meat!
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#16
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Quote:
That said, all the evidence is not in yet and there seems to be a tone of Monday Morning Quarterbacking taking shape here. One would almost get the impression that it's "obvious" these Ruth balls are fakes and "only" the TPAs thought they were good. Prior to this development, has anyone else been consistantly identifying these balls as forgeries?
__________________
Steve Zarelli Space Authentication Zarelli Space Authentication on Facebook Follow me on Twitter My blog: The Collecting Obsession |
#17
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Many people have been questioning the proliferation of high end Babe Ruth ss baseballs, for quite some time now.
But when certain auction houses gets a potential $50,000 in, what do you think can happen?
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 12-13-2011 at 02:28 PM. |
#18
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What specifically are you implying Richard?
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#19
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Auction houses want the high priced items to be authenticated by TPA's.
A lot of money is at stake. They earn zero if the authenticators deem an item to be not authentic. When a lot of money is at stake perhaps pressure is placed on authenticators to authenticate things that maybe should not be authenticated.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow Last edited by RichardSimon; 12-13-2011 at 07:11 PM. |
#20
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Quote:
Of course it's obvious. These balls have sold over a dozen different auction houses over a period of 15 years or longer. No one has catalogued them lilke this before. It takes a lot of effort to catalogue these and show the different distinct styles. Now that they are side by side, it is pretty obvious. The bottom one is most neutral as far as slant some parts almost straight up and down, and some parts with only slight slant to the right, the second one has an acute right slant, the top one only a slight right slant and the small e in ruth even slants the other way. Almost all of the balls are advertised as 40's balls or late 30's. With a substantial part of them advertised as 45' - '48, where you would expert a pretty consistent signature, but you see balls 'deemed auithentic' that look very much different. Nobody has been consistently identifying these balls as forgeries previously. Thats why this is groundbreaking! a big deal! its a bombshell and i think the tpa's wish nobody would have done the work to go way back and catalogue these and show them. Let's hear their defense. If they are confident in all of these dozens of snow white balls being legit, let's see their study to back it up. they do studies on mantle, williams, dimaggio, let's see them do ruth! Why is it monday morning quarterbacking when someone wants to get to the bottom of this? Unless people just want more and more of these to continue to be sold at auction with the precious LOA and auction loa, and precertification, and coa, and ... aw forget it. Remember, these go for 50 k to 300k. Anyone questioning them are monday morning quarterbacks? Only to the people who don't want any investigation and anybody to get to the bottom of this so the hobby can be cleaned up and this mess straightened out. What is Nash suppose to do with this information, just sit on it, and do nothing? It's a ten part series, if part 2 is getting peoples hackles up, just think what part 10 will bring? Last edited by travrosty; 12-13-2011 at 03:54 PM. |
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