Ohtani or Ruth?

[Balticfox]

They're entitled to get whatever they can get. And I'm entitled to spend, or withhold, my dollar votes accordingly for whatever rational, metaphysical, psychological or emotional reasons.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

If the owners choose to agree among themselves not to pay above a certain amount, that's their right. No one should hold a gun to their heads and say you can't come to this agreement. If the players don't like this agreement, nobody is forcing them to stay within MLB. They can play elsewhere or do something else entirely. It's still their choice.

Yes, agreed.

When the owners agree to do that, the players will quite likely withhold their services, and the owners can then hire other players to participate in their scheduled games.

I recently turned down a job that I didn't feel would pay me enough money for my services, I took a different job for less money that I felt did pay me enough for my services. The first job found somebody for less than what I turned down. Everybody won.

[bk400]

How would you guys like it if all the employers in your industry got together and agreed to cap all the workers' salary at a below market clearing level?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bk400

How would you guys like it if all the employers in your industry got together and agreed to cap all the workers' salary at a below market clearing level?

Do you really want Net54's opinion on this? Haha

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

If the owners choose to agree among themselves not to pay above a certain amount, that's their right. No one should hold a gun to their heads and say you can't come to this agreement.

It's literally not their right. They did that in 1985, it was rightly deemed illegal, and they had to pay restitution to the players.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I don't actually agree with your statement the way it's phrased.

To say everyone should be paid what their "worth" presupposes that there can be some objective determinant of the value of some individual's labour and that the individual must then be paid that amount. This is nonsense. The value of any individual's labour cannot be objectively determined by an outside party. And for pay rates/scales to be enforced would be an Orwellian nightmare.

Now I don't believe there should be government legislative barriers against anyone being paid whatever he can get. But the "worth" question is another matter entirely. On the one hand to me so-and-so (e.g. many pro athletes) aren't worth as much as they're making. But it's not up to me. I'm willing to stand aside and watch as they get whatever they can get in the marketplace.

That being said I also jealously guard my inalienable right to support or refrain from supporting whichever individual/entity I please for whatever reason. I reserve the right to just say "No!" to silliness.

The second paragraph I was totally against it until the outside party bit.

Assuming they're not stupid, any owner wouldn't pay someone the sort of money the stars get - what? 20 million/year? - if they didn't think that person would bring more than that to the business as profit.

That goes for pro players and pretty much all of us who aren't owners of a business. I had a discussion about it with a former employer once. I was a bit down because one of the other guys had given me a hard time about not billing much at all. I had a typical small business crazy job. Most purchasing, most inside sales, took nearly all calls to schedule service, Pulled parts for jobs, occasionally made parts, and did repairs both in the shop and on the road. Not very odd for a place with 5 people.

The guy I worked for asked me if I actually knew what product I provided to the company. I had no idea. The he asked what happened to the time on jobs I was interrupted while doing. Obviously if I had to take 3 calls during a 1 hour job it stretched it to 2 hours or more.
Exactly I was making sure the other guys weren't interrupted for anything but the most important questions. My product was time. My hour of doing "nothing" often translated to 2-3 hours of billable time.

So in a way most of us are probably paid what we're "worth" And yes, an outside party can't really determine that. But the people running the team or company can.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

At the risk of bringing the thread back on topic. When was the last time Babe Ruth stole 50+ bases while only being caught 4 times?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

At the risk of bringing the thread back on topic. When was the last time Babe Ruth stole 50+ bases while only being caught 4 times?

In Ruth's time,the bases weren't pizza box-sized, and pitchers weren't limited in throwing to first .. (Not that Ruth would've stolen 50 even with those things)

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

In Ruth's time,the bases weren't pizza box-sized, and pitchers weren't limited in throwing to first .. (Not that Ruth would've stolen 50 even with those things)

If there's one area where it's hard to argue Ruth was better than Ohtani in, it's base stealing. Ruth did steal 123 bases but was caught stealing 116 times not including his caught stealing to end the 1926 World Series.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by steve B

The second paragraph I was totally against it until the outside party bit.

To put it very precisely I'm absolutely opposed to the government being involved in determining and enforcing pay scales. That should be decided by mutual agreement between the employer and employee, i.e. determined in the marketplace.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

To put it very precisely I'm absolutely opposed to the government being involved in determining and enforcing pay scales. That should be decided by mutual agreement between the employer and employee, i.e. determined in the marketplace.

It sounds like you are unaware of the history of labor relations in baseball.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If there's one area where it's hard to argue Ruth was better than Ohtani in, it's base stealing. Ruth did steal 123 bases but was caught stealing 116 times not including his caught stealing to end the 1926 World Series.

Agreed, and I'm not making that argument. The rule changes making it easier to steal bases (I also didn't mention the "oven mitt" which effectively doubles the length of the player's hand) are part of the picture when trying to compare IMO

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

At the risk of bringing the thread back on topic. When was the last time Babe Ruth stole 50+ bases while only being caught 4 times?

As if anyone cares how many bases Ruth stole. It's like asking how many rushing yards Tom Brady had, or something.

SUMMARY
Career

WAR
182.6

AB
8399

H
2873

HR
714

BA
.342

R
2174

RBI
2214

SB
123

OBP
.474

SLG
.690

OPS
1.164

OPS+
206

[Balticfox]

Somehow the term "base stealer" doesn't pop to mind when I see this man:

[Yoda]

It seems to me, that the 1% of the 1% bazillionaires in this country have a common need to own a sport's franchise. Their bulging portfolios aren't complete without one and are jealous of those who already own one.

[Beercan collector]

Not so positive Ohtani’s gonna reach/surpass Ruth’s career pitching stats,
39-20 3.00
94-46 2.28
55,56 More wins ? Nowadays that’s a good five or six years of being in regular rotation.

[molenick]

It's amazing the lengths we will go to downgrade Ohtani's accomplishments.

He stole 59 bases and hit 54 home runs in the same year. Well, that's because the rules make it easier to steal bases now. Meanwhile this year the MLB leader in SBs had 49. And the year Ohtani stole 59 only one player had more (67 with 16 CS compared to Ohatni's 59 with 4 CS).

He struck out 10 batters, allowed no runs and two hits, and hit three home runs in the same game (a playoff game to boot). Well, he only pitched six innings. And he doesn't speak English. And he makes too much money (most of which he deferred to help the Dodgers sign more players).

Oh, and he doesn't drink enough, eat enough, or chase women.

I voted for Ruth. For career value, Ohtani has a long way to go. But that doesn't mean we can't appreciate what he is doing.

[Balticfox]

When you're as rich and famous as Ohtani, you don't need to chase women. So many just throw themselves at you that you have to fight them off. If you don't, it can leave you so drained that it impairs your base stealing ability. Maybe though that's why his stolen base total dropped from 59 to 20 this year.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

At the risk of bringing the thread back on topic. When was the last time Babe Ruth stole 50+ bases while only being caught 4 times?

The last season under the old rules, Ohtani attempted 20 steals and was thrown out 9 times. It is amazing how easy it is to steal bases now.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by rats60

The last season under the old rules, Ohtani attempted 20 steals and was thrown out 9 times. It is amazing how easy it is to steal bases now.

The year before the rule change, Ohtani was pitching also. Won his first of what will be 3 MVPs as a two way player. In the one year when he wasn't pitching, he was second in the league in stolen bases. Perhaps it is easier to steal bases now, but on a relative basis, he did pretty well when he decided to give it a real go.

I've been doing more research on Ruth's career. He really only had one full season as a two way player -- 1919. And many of his contemporaries were also two way players, like George Sisler. Being a two way player was also fairly common in the Negro Leagues, with stars like Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan leading the way. It's debatable whether Ruth was even the best two way player of his era, given others who did it and how short Ruth's two way career actually was.

In marked contrast, Ohtani is peerless in this era and every other for the past 100 years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ohtaini's CAREER pitching WAR is 16.2. Let's keep it real, shall we?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ohtaini's CAREER pitching WAR is 16.2. Let's keep it real, shall we?

Keeping it real: When was the last time we've had a hitter with even, say, 3 WAR while also getting 1 WAR as a pitcher in the same season? Ohtani far exceeded that in every one of the (soon to be) three years he's won MVP as a two way player.

And then consider how hard it is to do that when you're competing against the caliber of professional athletes today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

Keeping it real: When was the last time we've had a hitter with even, say, 3 WAR while also getting 1 WAR as a pitcher in the same season? Ohtani far exceeded that in every one of the (soon to be) three years he's won MVP as a two way player.

And then consider how hard it is to do that when you're competing against the caliber of professional athletes today.

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

[tycobb]

For any Ohtani fans ( fug it and for any non fans . Lets include everyone sharing is caring )

https://youtu.be/gZb_OLoZaaU?si=J8mYWGnMF0dP5S5R

https://youtu.be/NEJap9MV5iI?si=Gcev03Ahqd-cp8kN

https://youtu.be/J7ZgQA6pir0?si=sLQLw39EAUNfwflT

And from bad ass Judge mouth .

https://youtube.com/shorts/TrdLQ8cIN...gchlxlCdQINJfd


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

If value in terms of career WAR is your measure of who is better, then Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than both Clayton Kershaw and Bob Gibson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

If value in terms of career WAR is your measure of who is better, then Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than both Clayton Kershaw and Bob Gibson.

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by tycobb

For any Ohtani fans ( fug it and for any non fans . Lets include everyone sharing is caring )

https://youtu.be/gZb_OLoZaaU?si=J8mYWGnMF0dP5S5R

https://youtu.be/NEJap9MV5iI?si=Gcev03Ahqd-cp8kN

https://youtu.be/J7ZgQA6pir0?si=sLQLw39EAUNfwflT

And from bad ass Judge mouth .

https://youtube.com/shorts/TrdLQ8cIN...gchlxlCdQINJfd


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These are awesome clips, although to be fair, Aaron Judge is way too classy to say anything less gracious than what he said in his answer to the reporter. Judge is old school in that way. Yankees are lucky to have him.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

Just to chime in, if you don't mind. I can't speak for Ohtani's effectiveness as a pitcher or comparing across eras, because I do not know the stat for it. There is, however a stat that is all encompassing that measures a players offensive production, across eras, adjusting for park factors. I've included an image below that gives a more comprehensive definition below, along with its formula.






If we go by this statistical measurement. It's Ruth, it's not close. He owns a 194 wRC+. Ohtani's is very impressive though, sitting at a 156 wRC+.

For reference, it labels the three best hitters of all time, assuming minimum 1500 games, as Ruth, Williams and Bonds in that order.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Seven

Just to chime in, if you don't mind. I can't speak for Ohtani's effectiveness as a pitcher or comparing across eras, because I do not know the stat for it. There is, however a stat that is all encompassing that measures a players offensive production, across eras, adjusting for park factors. I've included an image below that gives a more comprehensive definition below, along with its formula.






If we go by this statistical measurement. It's Ruth, it's not close. He owns a 194 wRC+. Ohtani's is very impressive though, sitting at a 156 wRC+.

For reference, it labels the three best hitters of all time, assuming minimum 1500 games, as Ruth, Williams and Bonds in that order.

Thanks for this. I took a look and I think I get most of the wRC+ math. I actually can't say for sure, but does wRC+ account for the quality of the peer group (in other words, the quality of the average player)?

If not, then Ruth's high wRC+ suggests that he is much better than his peers in terms of offensive production than Ohtani, but it doesn't necessarily speak to whether doing that is easier or harder than what Ohtani is doing today (156 wRC+) relative to his peers.

Which means it really isn't that helpful in comparing players across eras; it's just helpful in comparing players relative to the average players within their own eras.

Ruth may be more genetically gifted relative to his peers than Ohtani is to his. In fact, when you look at Ruth, who looked like a morbidly obese person during the off-season and perhaps just an obese person in-season, that's a very plausible explanation for his out performance.

Ohtani is doing what he is doing in an era when basically every player is genetically gifted and also training hard and not screwing around lifestyle-wise (at least in ways that are detrimental to performance). And, as has been stated many times, Ohtani is the only two-way player in his era (which speaks to its absolute and relative difficulty), while Ruth was one of many -- and perhaps not even the best (cue Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan).

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Thanks for this. I took a look and I think I get most of the wRC+ math. I actually can't say for sure, but does wRC+ account for the quality of the peer group (in other words, the quality of the average player)?

If not, then Ruth's high wRC+ suggests that he is much better than his peers in terms of offensive production than Ohtani, but it doesn't necessarily speak to whether doing that is easier or harder than what Ohtani is doing today (156 wRC+) relative to his peers.

Which means it really isn't that helpful in comparing players across eras; it's just helpful in comparing players relative to the average players within their own eras.

Ruth may be more genetically gifted relative to his peers than Ohtani is to his. In fact, when you look at Ruth, who looked like a morbidly obese person during the off-season and perhaps just an obese person in-season, that's a very plausible explanation for his out performance.

Ohtani is doing what he is doing in an era when basically every player is genetically gifted and also training hard and not screwing around lifestyle-wise (at least in ways that are detrimental to performance). And, as has been stated many times, Ohtani is the only two-way player in his era (which speaks to its absolute and relative difficulty), while Ruth was one of many -- and perhaps not even the best (cue Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan).

I know it claims to be era and park adjusted, but unfortunately I think it's the best thing were going to find in terms of a number. I believe I said it earlier in the thread, we can only truly compare a player to his peers and in his era. Life is so different now.

Fangraphs does factor wRC+ for the Negro League players as well. Josh Gibson is the technical all time leader with a 202 wRC+ but due to the small sample sizes we have of his stats, as it's under 1500 games, I didn't think it should've been included.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

Yes, he absolutely is a great player, and the two way thing is amazing as I have said. I just don't buy the comparison to Ruth.

[ullmandds]

Ohtani is 100% "a modern day babe ruth" for his pitching/hitting prowess. The ball just sounds different coming off his bat...like ruth. Ohtani has a mania attached to him...worldwide...kinda like ruth had later in his career. Ohtani...like ruth has controversy attached with the gambling thing. All the greats are flawed.

Ruth's legacy is cemented. If ohtani can complete a whole career approaching 150-200 wins and over 4-500 hr's...he will be in his own league.

Comparisons from diff eras are fun...but are imprecise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ohtani is 100% "a modern day babe ruth" for his pitching/hitting prowess. The ball just sounds different coming off his bat...like ruth. Ohtani has a mania attached to him...worldwide...kinda like ruth had later in his career. Ohtani...like ruth has controversy attached with the gambling thing. All the greats are flawed.

Ruth's legacy is cemented. If ohtani can complete a whole career approaching 150-200 wins and over 4-500 hr's...he will be in his own league.

Comparisons from diff eras are fun...but are imprecise.

He has 39 wins thru his age 30 season. That's a big IF. Home runs, much more realistic.

[Beercan collector]

Every sport is always looking for the next king, went through the same thing when LeBron was at a similar stage in his career and also with Mahomes .
A lot of it is trying to predict the future.
Not enough to unseat Ruth ... yet

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

For the Game it showcases an exceptional human being.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Not enough to unseat Ruth ... yet

Team Ohtani here, but that I won't argue at all. If Ohtani ends up in a cascading injury spiral or otherwise doesn't continue to show what he's currently showing for a few more years then he was simply a guy who shined much brighter than his peers for a while.

I don't blame those that want Ohtani to prove more. I just believe he'll deliver that "more."

[theshowandme]

I went to Game 1 last night. Here is my view of the Ohtani homer

https://youtu.be/YUVUhtyvY_4?si=CaefnGBO5mg6c2N_

[KJA]

Originally Posted by rats60

The last season under the old rules, Ohtani attempted 20 steals and was thrown out 9 times. It is amazing how easy it is to steal bases now.

With how easy it is I was hoping for more of an explosion like in the 80's.

[campyfan39]

Very nice

Originally Posted by theshowandme

I went to Game 1 last night. Here is my view of the Ohtani homer

https://youtu.be/YUVUhtyvY_4?si=CaefnGBO5mg6c2N_

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

I went to Game 1 last night. Here is my view of the Ohtani homer

https://youtu.be/YUVUhtyvY_4?si=CaefnGBO5mg6c2N_

Nice camerawork!

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

I went to Game 1 last night. Here is my view of the Ohtani homer

https://youtu.be/YUVUhtyvY_4?si=CaefnGBO5mg6c2N_

Nice tracking .. noticed in your other video Bluejays crossing the plate
at the tail end of the slam