T206 Resource, I would appreciate an opinion on this one

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by danmckee

oh ok thanks Tim, so you have no opinion on the SCP auctions that are selling PSA graded cards with front/back combinations that can't exist?

I think you are smart to stay out of that stuff, good show!

dan

That's different. One can tell with certainty from a scan that a front/back combo is impossible. Detecting trimming or rolled out creases isn't as clear cut.

[danmckee]

oh gotchya, big difference

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

That's different. One can tell with certainty from a scan that a front/back combo is impossible. Detecting trimming or rolled out creases isn't as clear cut.

So based on the scan of the Goodwin PSA 8 card, you can't tell it is trimmed?

Is that your professional opinion?

[FrankWakefield]

Maybe there's a middle road, guys. Maybe it was pristine and grand when they graded it, then something happened to that edge before the physical slabbing was completed. You betcha!!!

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by danmckee

So based on the scan of the Goodwin PSA 8 card, you can't tell it is trimmed?

Is that your professional opinion?

I'm not a professional grader by any stretch and never claimed to be good at detecting trimmed cards.

If I said the card was trimmed what would happen?

And the fact that it's a T206 shouldn't put Jim and I at the top of "must post" list. There are many people that are extremely knowledgeable about all issues and can detect trimming. Most of them didn't respond in your thread either.

[danmckee]

So you and Jim are not the experts? I am sure Scott Forest and Wonka will be posting, just thought I would ask for your opinion as well.

So you have no opinion?

Obviously nothing will change when you state your opinion but why should that matter or keep you from stating your opinion?

I am asking you for your opinion, is that so hard?

Is this card trimmed or not based on the scan and in your opinion whether professional or not?

I gave my opinion and will respect your opinion if it agrees or not with mine.

thanks and I appreciate your opinion

Dan

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by danmckee

So you and Jim are not the experts? I am sure Scott Forest and Wonka will be posting, just thought I would ask for your opinion as well.

So you have no opinion?

Obviously nothing will change when you state your opinion but why should that matter or keep you from stating your opinion?

I am asking you for your opinion, is that so hard?

Is this card trimmed or not based on the scan and in your opinion whether professional or not?

I gave my opinion and will respect your opinion if it agrees or not with mine.

thanks and I appreciate your opinion

Dan

No Dan, Jim and I don't claim to be experts.

No, I honestly don't have an opinion about the card in question. I didn't submit it, consign it, nor am I planning on bidding on it, so it's of no importance to me what is printed on the slab.

No where on the website do we discuss how to detect trimmed cards or profess to be good at doing it. So again, other than this being a T206 I'm not sure why you would want my opinion. I don't think if it was a T205, '33 Goudey, or 1960 Topps you would care what I think.

There are many people better at detecting trimmed cards than me and you would be better served with your own opinion or theirs rather than mine.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I am sure Scott Forest and Wonka will be posting, just thought I would ask for your opinion as well.

I feel honored that you have mentioned my name in the same sentence as someone whose opinion I respect. At the moment, all cardboard still looks alike to me, but when that changes I'll start jumping into the frays again.

[T206Collector]

I think this card has to be analyzed with a very zealous eye. Usually the trim jobs to be concerned of are on the cards with four right angles. A fraudster is not doing his job well if this one is trimmed. He has left himself plenty of space to hack again more carefully, to be more deceptive and make more money. Why didn't he use it?

In any event, the best way to check for trimming in T206 cards is to look at all four sides of the card -- something you cannot do with a front/back scan. You really have to examine the edge cut, cardboard striations, beveling, etc. Or didn't everyone read that article in SGC Collector Magazine a few years back?

Do I think there is a lot to be concerned about here? Yes.

Do I think PSA have monkey graders? You betcha!

Would I make a claim one way or another about this one based on scan alone? No chance.

To declare a trim here so matter-of-factly would ignore the lack of required evidence to prove a trim.

[Texxxx]

I am very new to collecting prewar cards compared to most here and am loving getting educated about them. I did not know that when they cut the 206 cards that they had the ability to cut them with perfectly square corners. I love learning these things.

[3-2-count]

Dan. First off I appreciate your energy you bring to the issues we all know exist in third party grading. It's a mess no doubt and some pretty unethical practices definitely take place. Have you ever thought though that your approach you take on these matters keeps others from participating or even responding. Everyone of your post's on this subject comes off pretty damn close to a threat and leaves most of us not wanting to even get involved. Just my two cents, but you would more than likely get much more participation from some pretty experienced collectors here if you just pulled back the reigns a little bit. You seem like a good guy and are well respected by many. Your friends that know you put up with you because they know what your really about. For the ones of us though who only know you through a keyboard you come across very abrasive and one sided when it comes to discussions that could and should be discussed much more civil. Again just my two cents. Take it as you may.

[FrankWakefield]

The card does not have a normal cut. "Trim" has an intentional connotation, and I doubt that anyone intended that jagged outcome. So it has an irregular, non factory cut to that top border. I don't understand nor care for grading, but what little I do know about it has me not understanding how the card got graded.

I'd think some folks don't care. Some care but don't ever post. A few have opinions but don't want to post so as not to offend anyone. I have great respect for Mr. Goodwin, and don't really want anything here to reflect negatively on him. He didn't do the grading, though. I wasn't displeased with A-Rod or Pujols for taking those big contracts, they should have signed... it's the idiot owners that offered the contracts that has changed the game. Some folks don't want to post negative opinions about a slabbed card because they themselves send cards to that grader, get involved with the set registry stuff, and all that jazz. I don't do any of that stuff, so that doesn't worry me. I don't want to intenionally stir them up, but how the hell did that card get anything other than authentic?

Dan is a bit aggressive, on occasion. I'm thankful someone is. He's a better service and watchdog for the hobby than any, nay all of the third party graders are.

[tedzan]

Save your breath....T206Resource's Red HINDU checklist has that phony red HINDU / red Cobb listed as confirmed.

Many of us dinosaurs know that this card was professionally altered by taking an authentic red HINDU back and RE-FRONTING
it with a red Cobb image.

In my opinion....this red Cobb listing in their "infallible" checklists blows any integrity they had.

Dan
ole buddy....it's not an absolute game they play, it's as you said back in Post #3....it's POLITICS !


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Irony, sweet irony.

[terjung]

Wow. I must have missed something.

Dan, I've met you and know you are no fan of 3rd party grading, but this comes off as an attack at a couple of guys who have done some work to try to help figure out the monster. I've never met the guys from T206 resource, but have read some of their posts and haven't construed that they hold themselves out to be the end-all be-all on all things trimmed.

I can see a discussion of front vs. back combinations being relevant, but am not sure I understand why their opinion on trimming / altering is more relevant than anybody else here and I certainly don't see them classifying themselves as professionals in the grading industry.

Dan, I like you and will continue to do so, but I've got to ask, why the issue with these guys? Like I said, I guess I missed something.

FWIW, I do agree that if somebody starts a website on the premise of being a "resource", there is bound to be some feedback - both positive and negative. I'm no tobacco card collector and have no idea who is right about printing orders and sheets, but I've always enjoyed when supported hypotheses are shared and discussed. To me, that is what this hobby and this board should be about. Yeah, we gripe about this and that - many times with just cause. I guess I just don't see the "just cause" in this case. If it were a card that were being sold by them, I could see a potential beef, but calling someone out and labelling them as "experts" on card altering and asking their opinion based on only a scan seems a little far fetched... but again... maybe I'm missing something.

Personally, I'd think someone like Kevin Saucier would be more likely to be called out in this way - specifically because he has held himself out to be a guy who can detect and maybe duplicate alterations / trimming, but even then, I'd expect that someone like that would need to see a card in person in order to render a definitive opinion.

So, I guess that is a long winded way of saying, why the "professional opinion" angle on a scan of what may be a graded, allegedly trimmed card?

[Rob D.]

Dan or Tim,

I thought I was pretty familiar with all of the content on T206Resource.com. I apparently am not.

Could you please post links to the pages where the site's owners claim to be experts and/or professionals at detecting trimmed cards? If there are no such pages, then links to just the pages where trimmed T206s are discussed. If there are no such pages, then links to just the pages where the pros and cons of third-party grading are discussed.

Thanks in advance.