Question about PSA/JSA "Guarantees"

toybulldog · #1 07-12-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

mighty bombjack · #2 07-12-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

Exhibitman · #3 07-12-2012, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

That is exactly correct, Wayne; thank you for not purposefully misrepresenting my point. One of the things that absolutely drives me nuts in this field is the substitution of opinion for fact and the demand for fact when opinion is all that is available. Unless I was standing there watching the subject sign I cannot state as fact that an autograph is authentic: I must rely on what an eyewitness tells me [hearsay] or the opinion of an expert. Since I cannot testify from firsthand experience of the signing as to all but a few items I own, the most I can do is offer an opinion. I do not have the cachet or expertise to offer a marketable opinion so I hire an expert to do it for me. Hopefully I hire a good one, but as long as I hire one whose opinions are generally accepted by the buyers in the pertinent marketplaces and that expert renders an opinion, what I think is irrelevant and what the unknowable ultimate facts are likewise are irrelevant. As the ultimate fact is unknowable and irrelevant, I do not care whether an item is "real" as many colloquially put it; I care that I do not mislead anyone about what I am offering.

Anyone who collects or trades in signatures ultimately is trading in opinions, not facts. I know some folks don't like to admit that, but it is the inescapable truth.

cjedmonton · #4 07-12-2012, 04:47 PM

Okay, so I should go with GAI, then?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Such an entertaining/informative thread...only wish I had something more to contribute other than the OP.

Plinvestments · #5 07-12-2012, 05:17 PM

TPAs are like US dollars. With our debt problems in this country, a dollar is probably not worth a dollar. You're better off holding gold or loonies or kronas. However, the last time I checked, I couldn't fill my enlarged belly at McDonald's with kronas. Therefore, the ol mighty dollar is still king.

On another note, Richard mentioned how "the hobby" is being ruined. I think there needs to be a clarification. The autograph market and autograph hobby are distinctly different. amazon entered the memorabilia business because they said the $4 billion market was to hard to ignore. What portion of that do you attribute to hobbyists? I would guess less than 5% of that. The rest buy autographs for the art/display factor or recreation factor. They are not that concerned about value. I compare them to people who buy prints on cruise ships. They are not art collectors and the pieces they buy are for aesthetics, not collector value.

The hobbyists are very well informed. They know what they want, how to detect fakes, and know who they can buy from. Richard does a stellar job servicing the hobby. However, more generalist dealers serve the entire market, which includes the rest of the 95%. those are the people who request/demand and see value in tpa's.

Exhibitman · #6 07-12-2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

Okay, so I should go with GAI, then?

Ask me on Monday when they open...

RichardSimon · #7 07-12-2012, 04:44 PM

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Quote:

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

Exhibitman · #8 07-12-2012, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

What I wrote was: "Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Your example is colorful but it assumes facts not in evidence, as they say in my profession. I did not say that I do not care if something is fake. If I believe something is fake I certainly would not sell it; arguing against that straw man is a misrepresentation of my views. My point was and is that in the absence of evidence I can understand--like a card made after a player's death with a signature or a preprint mistakenly labeled as genuine--if I do not know the answer and if I hired an expert to opine for me, I will not contradict the expert's opinion with my own guess and I therefore am not concerned with whether an objectively unknowable fact is true. I hire a professional whose work is accepted in the market and I rely on that professional's expertise, just as someone hires me to explain the nuances of a commercial lease. The entire autograph business is based on opinions rather than facts, and when nobody knows the ultimate fact [whether the person really held and signed the item], it becomes irrelevant.

Anyone who collects or sells autographs has a very simple choice: collect only what you get yourself in person or through trusted associates and friends or rely on [presumably] expert opinions including your own as to what you are buying. But if you decide to collect or sell anything not signed in your presence, then let's not continue to pretend that establishing the authenticity of such items is objective in nature. It can't be objective given the lack of hard facts and by definition you are relying on an expert's opinion. Now, if you want to accuse me of hiding behind the opinions of professional experts, OK, you got me. I plead guilty to doing the same thing with sports memorabilia that I do with my car, my computer, my plumbing, etc.

Forever Young · #9 07-12-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What I wrote was: "Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Your example is colorful but it assumes facts not in evidence, as they say in my profession. I did not say that I do not care if something is fake. If I believe something is fake I certainly would not sell it; arguing against that straw man is a misrepresentation of my views. My point was and is that in the absence of evidence I can understand--like a card made after a player's death with a signature or a preprint mistakenly labeled as genuine--if I do not know the answer and if I hired an expert to opine for me, I will not contradict the expert's opinion with my own guess and I therefore am not concerned with whether an objectively unknowable fact is true. I hire a professional whose work is accepted in the market and I rely on that professional's expertise, just as someone hires me to explain the nuances of a commercial lease. The entire autograph business is based on opinions rather than facts, and when nobody knows the ultimate fact [whether the person really held and signed the item], it becomes irrelevant.

Anyone who collects or sells autographs has a very simple choice: collect only what you get yourself in person or through trusted associates and friends or rely on [presumably] expert opinions including your own as to what you are buying. But if you decide to collect or sell anything not signed in your presence, then let's not continue to pretend that establishing the authenticity of such items is objective in nature. It can't be objective given the lack of hard facts and by definition you are relying on an expert's opinion. Now, if you want to accuse me of hiding behind the opinions of professional experts, OK, you got me. I plead guilty to doing the same thing with sports memorabilia that I do with my car, my computer, my plumbing, etc.

I love it.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Oliver Optics Magazine question	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	0	02-17-2008 01:17 PM
original hartland statue question?	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	2	12-29-2007 06:55 PM
E93 color question	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	7	10-03-2004 07:50 PM
Question about this Christy Mathewson item (scanned)	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	8	06-20-2002 07:33 PM
T206 Ty Cobb Question	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	4	06-09-2002 01:21 PM