Toughest 1940's & 1950's Baseball Autographs

[JimStinson]

Also teams 1919 Reds, 1919 White Sox, 1927 Yankees, 1955 Dodgers or ALL players that ever played for the Yankees, or Dodgers etc. Your correct it does not translate into other fields of collecting. Except maybe the entire cast of "The Wizard of OZ" or "Casablana" or "Gone with the Wind" or "The Godfather"

[JimStinson]

Also using BOXING as an example I was the guy that did over 200 private signings with boxing champions and impossible to find non-baseball autographs including the legendary (and now deceased) middleweight champ CARLOS MONZON in Argentina , JOHN TATE (when he was in prison), TREVOR BERBICK (shortly before his head was split open with a machette), OSCAR DE LA HOYA (Right after the Gold Medal in Barcelona), etc etc and the response was luke warm at best.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Also using BOXING as an example I was the guy that did over 200 private signings with boxing champions and impossible to find non-baseball autographs including the legendary (and now deceased) middleweight champ CARLOS MONZON in Argentina , JOHN TATE (when he was in prison), TREVOR BERBICK (shortly before his head was split open with a machette), OSCAR DE LA HOYA (Right after the Gold Medal in Barcelona), etc etc and the response was luke warm at best.

Exactly, i collect boxing and other than collecting all of the opponents of muhammad ali, there isnt much of demand to collect all boxers who fought joe louis, frazier etc. (Even though i collected all the championship opponents of Louis and got many of them from you.)

I think i have the only manuel ramos autograph around but he fought frazier for the title and not Muhammad Ali, so it is almost worthless even though he was mexican heavyweight champion and the only mexican national to fight for the heavyweight crown. Had he fought Muhammad Ali it would be worth a lot. Had he been a baseball player it would be a brick of gold.

I just never hear of people looking for an autograph of someone of little note other than playing in the league who played three games for the boston celtics back in 1948. but baseball has its allure I guess.

[JimStinson]

Yes you are correct , other fields of collecting trend toward specific areas of collecting, With boxing its tipically the heavyweight champs, or guys who fought Ali. Or Louis but here is the KINK , there might be only 2 or 3 guys that collect in that arena so ....even though the autograph is SUPER tough , even tougher than some of the "cup of coffee baseball players" there does not exist a "market" and market determines value ....at the MOMENT , which changes always

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Yes you are correct , other fields of collecting trend toward specific areas of collecting, With boxing its tipically the heavyweight champs, or guys who fought Ali. Or Louis but here is the KINK , there might be only 2 or 3 guys that collect in that arena so ....even though the autograph is SUPER tough , even tougher than some of the "cup of coffee baseball players" there does not exist a "market" and market determines value ....at the MOMENT , which changes always

you are right, there is only a few, only 6 i know that collect ali opponents, and they have most of them on the list now. so no real market, you have to know someone who knows the guys who might have one and the price is whatever the two people agree upon. I get inquiries sometimes about how much this tough ali opponent autograph is worth and many times I say "I don't know" they don't trade hands enough to put a concrete price on it.

Ali opponents herb siler, sonny banks, tony esperti, and alejandro lavorante are the toughest outside of jim robinson, where no known autographs exist.

there are 50 opponents and someone has 49, so he's done, a few have in the 40's.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Exactly, i collect boxing and other than collecting all of the opponents of muhammad ali, there isnt much of demand to collect all boxers who fought joe louis, frazier etc. (Even though i collected all the championship opponents of Louis and got many of them from you.)

I think i have the only manuel ramos autograph around but he fought frazier for the title and not Muhammad Ali, so it is almost worthless even though he was mexican heavyweight champion and the only mexican national to fight for the heavyweight crown. Had he fought Muhammad Ali it would be worth a lot. Had he been a baseball player it would be a brick of gold.

I just never hear of people looking for an autograph of someone of little note other than playing in the league who played three games for the boston celtics back in 1948. but baseball has its allure I guess.

I have read a couple different articles about collectors trying to collect all the Ali opponents. Is a Jim Robinson autograph still considered to be non-existant?

I have also read in the past about a collector trying to collect every man who ever fought for the heavyweight title, so I was familiar with how tough Ramos is. I saw a Ramos autograph on eBay a few months ago. Obviously, eBay is loaded with fakes and frauds. But Ramos seems like he would be a pretty obscure guy to fake. I don't even think it ever sold. From what I remember, the seller claimed it came from Ramos' military discharge papers. I thought that was kinda weird, beause isn't that where the one known legit Ramos autograph originated from?

I know baseball will always be king as far as autograph values go, but it always amazes me how cheap boxing autographs from the early 20th century are for everyone other than the heavyweight champions.

Who were the toughest Louis opponents to collect?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Your correct it does not translate into other fields of collecting. Except maybe the entire cast of "The Wizard of OZ" or "Casablana" or "Gone with the Wind" or "The Godfather"

In space you have collectors who collect every astronaut. Then you get into flown versus everyone who ever attained astronaut status, which is difficult, but not impossible.

if you throw cosmonauts into the mix, it becomes nearly impossible.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

In space you have collectors who collect every astronaut. Then you get into flown versus everyone who ever attained astronaut status, which is difficult, but not impossible.

if you throw cosmonauts into the mix, it becomes nearly impossible.

I'm curious Steve.
How many people in each of those categories?
Moonwalkers, Flew into space, just plain ole astronauts, and cosmonauts.
How many of them would be considered difficult?
Am I correct in thinking the Armstrong is the most expensive? Is he the most difficult to get?
I know little about the astronaut field, but, like most, was fascinated with them as a kid. One of my goals is to eventually get an Armstrong.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mr. Zipper]

Flown astronauts are a little over 350. Unflown are a few dozen.

Cosmonauts and taikonauts are a little over 150.

Like anything else, it's the 10% that are really tough for one reason or another.

Unflown guys like Ted Freeman, Charlie Basset, CC Williams and Elliott See are rare because they died early in the program. There are also a few shuttle astros you've never heard of before who sell for huge money because they died prematurely soon after they earned their wings.

Grissom, White and Chaffee (Apollo 1) are not super rare, but in very high demand. Then there is Bill anders (Apollo 8) who hates signing and is uncommon and in high demand. To make it even more fun, Anders intentionally changes how he signs (when he rarely signs) just to mess with collectors.

Armstrong is common, but demand is so high, signed cards sell for $1000. Photos $1500 and up.

Russian tradition was cosmonauts should not sign until after their flight... A superstition they all followed. So, the cosmonauts who died on their first flight are extremely rare. For example, Dobrovolsky and Patseyev who died on Soyuz 11 only exist on a handful of official documents that reside in Russian museums. A few signed items have appeared on the collector market, however many collectors have serious doubts about these items.

There are various subsets such as all 12 moonwalkers on white spacesuit photos, but there is always a catch. For instance, Jim Irwin hated his space suit portrait and almost never signed it. An Irwin WSS unpersonalized would probably sell for $10,000+.

A single item with all 12 moonwalkers would be huge. Only a handful exist. A baseball with 10 (or was it 11) of the 12 just sold at heritage for $21,000 plus.

[Lordstan]

WOW.
I had no idea there were that many. Fascinating stuff.
Thanks for the education. I really do appreciate it.

Now I have to plan the money for an Armstrong. Hmmm.

Best,
Mark

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Now I have to plan the money for an Armstrong.

I'd love an Armstrong - who wouldn't? - but I'll settle for my Buzz Aldrin check.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

I'd love an Armstrong - who wouldn't? - but I'll settle for my Buzz Aldrin check.

Nice. Back in the late 80s/90s, Aldrin donated a a bunch of these checks to the Space Unit in Queens NY. The Space Unit sold them for the princely sum of $40 and they lasted years.

Wish I bought more than one at that time!

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

A single item with all 12 moonwalkers would be huge. Only a handful exist. A baseball with 10 (or was it 11) of the 12 just sold at heritage for $21,000 plus.

If you included Michael Jackson that would be 13 "moonwalkers"

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If you included Michael Jackson that would be 13 "moonwalkers"

[earlywynnfan]

How does Dave Hoskins rate for toughness? I always thought he was pretty hard, I consider myself lucky to have a single-signed ball of his. I'm about to post a team-signed ball with him, but don't want to mislead.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Flown astronauts are a little over 350. Unflown are a few dozen.

Cosmonauts and taikonauts are a little over 150.

Like anything else, it's the 10% that are really tough for one reason or another.

Unflown guys like Ted Freeman, Charlie Basset, CC Williams and Elliott See are rare because they died early in the program. There are also a few shuttle astros you've never heard of before who sell for huge money because they died prematurely soon after they earned their wings.

Grissom, White and Chaffee (Apollo 1) are not super rare, but in very high demand. Then there is Bill anders (Apollo 8) who hates signing and is uncommon and in high demand. To make it even more fun, Anders intentionally changes how he signs (when he rarely signs) just to mess with collectors.

Armstrong is common, but demand is so high, signed cards sell for $1000. Photos $1500 and up.

Russian tradition was cosmonauts should not sign until after their flight... A superstition they all followed. So, the cosmonauts who died on their first flight are extremely rare. For example, Dobrovolsky and Patseyev who died on Soyuz 11 only exist on a handful of official documents that reside in Russian museums. A few signed items have appeared on the collector market, however many collectors have serious doubts about these items.

There are various subsets such as all 12 moonwalkers on white spacesuit photos, but there is always a catch. For instance, Jim Irwin hated his space suit portrait and almost never signed it. An Irwin WSS unpersonalized would probably sell for $10,000+.

A single item with all 12 moonwalkers would be huge. Only a handful exist. A baseball with 10 (or was it 11) of the 12 just sold at heritage for $21,000 plus.

Are the guys from the recently discovered CIA gemini project known? I'd imagine those would be tough.

Steve B

[JimStinson]

Dave Hoskins is VERY tough even though he died in 1970. Most collectors however that collect everyone would want him on a single flat , maybe not a team ball but he would absolutely add value to the ball. I would expect a flat item, cut from album page etc to sell in the $150.00-$200 price range.
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[btcarfagno]

Just picked up this Herb Gorman 1952 Cardinals team signed sheet. If anyone is looking for Gorman, let me know....

Tom C