Heritage Auctions

[Heritage Sports]

This is an issue that has been discussed on the board previously, and Mr. Roste has it almost completely right. Every bid Heritage places is an intent to buy at wholesale level. We don’t expect to win much at this level since the vast majority of our offerings sell at retail, but we offer the same price we would at a dealer’s booth at the National, for instance. These “house bids” are placed exactly seven days prior to the closing of the auction.

In these two regards, our “house bidding” policy is distinctly different from shill bidding. A shill bidder has no interest in owning a piece at his high bid. We do have an interest. And, most typically, shill bidding is used to “run up” another bidder’s absentee bid. Our “house bids” are placed a week prior to closing, long before the vast majority of competitive bidding takes place.

I hope this makes the distinction clear, but I certainly invite anybody who wishes to discuss it further to email me directly, or to call me at the office. My contact information is below.

[barrysloate]

This should be an interesting thread.

[Bicem]

Sketch. Any chance of not doing this?

[Jay Wolt]

Although legal I'm sure, it doesn't seem all that ethical.
Unless I'm missing something.

[Jaybird]

It's lame. Anyway you slice it, it is bidding against the lifeblood of an auction house (its bidders). You may be making the consignor happy by inflating the prices but you sure aren't making any friends with the bidders.

And I, as a consignor, wouldn't want to do business with an auction house that was alienating bidders. The fact that it is in the rules doesn't matter. It isn't right.

[Bugsy]

I also think any seller, be it a large house or a small-timer on eBay, placing a bid on their own listing is shill bid. You want to have a price floor on an item? Put a reserve on it before the auction even begins...

...but this conversation is re-creating the wheel, no?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=shill+bidding

[Jlighter]

I don't think it is that big of a deal. They are bidding with the intent to own. This means they think the price is too low. Its not like their shill bidding thousands of dollars on a Mordedcai Brown which will never be sold for a profit at that level. I do believe that it should be disclosed on a auction lot if Heritage is bidding, it very well may be, I'm not that familiar with Heritage.

[E93]

Despite the clarity and ease of Heritage's website (extreme sarcasm) I could not find their auction rules. However if I remember correctly they allow house bidding without restrictions. They also allow employees to bid with insider knowledge of other bids and bidders. The representative on this thread may claim that they only place house bids seven days in advance of closing - a problematic policy at that - but there is nothing in their own rules to limit house bidding to that in any way. Personally I do not feel comfortable bidding in this sort of situation. If I have misrepresented due to my faulty memory, please clarify where I am wrong.
JimB

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I don't think it is that big of a deal. They are bidding with the intent to own. This means they think the price is too low. Its not like their shill bidding thousands of dollars on a Mordedcai Brown which will never be sold for a profit at that level. I do believe that it should be disclosed on a auction lot if Heritage is bidding, it very well may be, I'm not that familiar with Heritage.

The fine print says they reserve the right to bid, it does not say they must bid only 7 days before the auction ends, that is their own self imposed rule that they can disregard at any time without breaking their disclosure in the fine print that 99 percent of the bidders haven't read. It should be in bold print on each auction listing./

And Jonathon, if it is Heritage's policy to limit themselves to 7 days before the auction ends, why isn't that in the disclosure?e

If a babe ruth bat is expected to sell for a million dollars and heritage's wholesale limit is 650,000, and they know for certain , 100% that the end bid will be above that price, do they still place the 650,000 dollar bid 7 days before auction ends if the price has not hit that level yet? Remember, they know the big boys who are interested in this piece, they probably sent out golden engraved invitations to them.

do they put in the 650,000 bid anyway, granted they want to buy it at that price, but they know for a fact it will go higher. The secondary effect of placing the bid they know the can't win is to bump up the price sooner in the auction. They can always say they wanted to buy it at 650,000, but since the knew they couldn't ever win it at that price, do they place the bid anyway? Is it ethical for an auction house to place that bid they know they can't win on a hot item they know will go through the roof?

That's the slippery slope of auction houses who want to be dealers as well. Why not just be an auction house? How do customers benefit by competing against the auction house itself for items? The auction house has all the inside informtion, the customers don't.

[RUSH2112]

[QUOTE=Heritage Sports;1015232]

In these two regards, our “house bidding” policy is distinctly different from shill bidding. A shill bidder has no interest in owning a piece at his high bid. We do have an interest. And, most typically, shill bidding is used to “run up” another bidder’s absentee bid. Our “house bids” are placed a week prior to closing, long before the vast majority of competitive bidding takes place.

QUOTE]

You can use terms "house bids" but there is no difference between a "house bid" and "shill" bidding. I been attending auctions since I was a teenager and I have seen just about everything at auctions. While bidding by the owner of an item, who shows up at the sale, is considered shill bidding, it is accepted and happens very often. When the auction house places bids, it's again, "shill" bidding.

I have seen an auctioneers bid on an items but only because they could not get a decent starting bid and only seen this a couple times in my life. I have also seen auctioneers bidding against their own staff and everbody knew what was going on. No customers were getting bid up.

So you can call it what you will, but personally, if I knew an auction house was placing bids on items that were on consignment, without disclosure to the other bidders, I would never set foot in that auction house again.

[keithsky]

I think it's still shill bidding in my little mind. Heritage says they bid a week before. What difference does it make if you bid a week before or that day the auction ends they are still jacking the price up starting the bidding off early. It's making people bid higher on an item more than it should be. That is what gets me with ebay. You see an auction start at 6 days and people bidding right out of the box. Never could understand the reasoning with that unless someone won't be by there computor for the next 6 days but not likely considering all the people that bid early. All that is doing is rasing the price up.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

This is an issue that has been discussed on the board previously, and Mr. Roste has it almost completely right. Every bid Heritage places is an intent to buy at wholesale level. We don’t expect to win much at this level since the vast majority of our offerings sell at retail, but we offer the same price we would at a dealer’s booth at the National, for instance. These “house bids” are placed exactly seven days prior to the closing of the auction.

This doesn't make sense, you say "Every bid Heritage places is an intent to buy at wholesale level". Well your bid here won the item, yet you immediately re-list for sale on your Site and you attempt to re-sell it on Ebay. So did the "Consignor" of this item to Heritage actually get paid? I highly doubt it. It most likely is an item owned by Heritage, you bid it up attempting to get max value. It's shill bidding, but you can get away with it because you clearly state we bid on items aka shill bid.

And your claims of Sales totals are very false, because I'm sure you include all these items that were "sold", but really remain with Heritage for future auction or sell on Ebay. So anyone then can say they sold millions of dollars in their auction but when your "winning" your own items, it's a false claim.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

In these two regards, our “house bidding” policy is distinctly different from shill bidding. A shill bidder has no interest in owning a piece at his high bid. We do have an interest. And, most typically, shill bidding is used to “run up” another bidder’s absentee bid. Our “house bids” are placed a week prior to closing, long before the vast majority of competitive bidding takes place.

And this......"you have an interest in owning", so if u won this item with hopes of "owning", why is it immediately re-listed for sale and then put on Ebay for Sale as well. You have ZERO interest in owning it, you guys bid it up to get max value, if in your eyes u do not get enough from a real bidder, you win the item by default and thus try to re-sell it.

It's a total crock of sh-t!

Obviously u can't come on here and say yes we shill bid.....but don't come on here and try to slap a coat of paint on a piece of sh-t and try to sell your BS.

Just let us talk about the funny business your company may be doing so bidders and consignors are aware of what you may get with Heritage. If u want to pay retail or higher bid with Heritage, if you want to consign to Heritage be aware that your item may not sell to a real bidder and u may be SOL.

[E93]

As far as I can see there is nothing in the stated policy to prevent Heritage Auctions from checking what all the top all bids are ten minutes before closing of the auction and then raising them all to their limit with the house account. If this does not happen, I think it would be in Heritage Auctions' best interest to formally state that in the rules. In a business with so much room for misleading shenanigans, it seems that formally limiting what can be done in stated rules rather than leaving it open would be a policy that would instill trust. The way it is written now, it is difficult for me to trust what is going on there.
JimB

[jefferyepayne]

Read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html

I've learned the hard way that no matter how much I may want something someone is selling, if my gut says I can't trust the person involved in the transaction, I should walk away from the deal. Every time I've ever violated this gut feeling, I've been burned.

jeff

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html

I've learned the hard way that no matter how much I may want something someone is selling, if my gut says I can't trust the person involved in the transaction, I should walk away from the deal. Every time I've ever violated this gut feeling, I've been burned.

jeff

"One way to make sure those babies keep rising in price: Halperin allows Heritage employees--himself included--to bid on items it auctions off. What seller wouldn't appreciate having a shill right there on the premises? Especially one with deep pockets. "

[Exhibitman]

BABU: You shilled my bid?
HERITAGE: Well not technically.
BABU: I kill you!!
HERITAGE: Well what about Mastro?
BABU: I kill both of you!!
HERITAGE: Babu?!
BABU: No Babu! No Babu! You bad auctioneer! You very bad auctioneer! You very lazy bad auctioneer!