Wagner??

drc · #1 08-08-2012, 11:43 AM

There's an old saying with baseball photos (which means I said it once three years ago). It goes 100% sure is, and 90% is the same as isn't. This in particular applied to 1800s tintypes and such where the question was was that anonymous guy in a baseball-like uniform really a baseball player. There were cases where we'd say "If he was holding a baseball and a bat we'd be sure he was a baseball player, but he isn't so we can't be sure."

Forever Young · #2 08-08-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drc

There's an old saying with baseball photos (which means I said it once three years ago). It goes 100% sure is, and 90% is the same as isn't. This in particular applied to 1800s tintypes and such where the question was was that anonymous guy in a baseball-like uniform really a baseball player. There were cases where we'd say "If he was holding a baseball and a bat we'd be sure he was a baseball player, but he isn't so we can't be sure."

to quote brian fantana: "60 percent of the time, it works every time"

mordecaibrown · #3 08-08-2012, 02:24 PM

This is more of an educational question for Mark - as he has infinite more experience in photo recognition than me.

As for the ear comparison, to me there appears two differences in the photo comparison.

To me the bottom of the lobe in the "left handed batter" original photo looks like the lobe attaches to the neck downwards versus the lobe in the known Wagner appears to turn back up to the ear canal. I hope I explained that well - essentially, to me, it looks like the lobes attached to the neck differently in these two pics.

Also, it appears that the ear is different above the ear canal in the two pics - left handed batter with skin flap and Wagner with no inner ear flap above his ear canal. This could definitely be a difference from the picture angles.

Thanks for the info.

Andy

bmarlowe1 · #4 08-08-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

This is more of an educational question for Mark - as he has infinite more experience in photo recognition than me.

As for the ear comparison, to me there appears two differences in the photo comparison.

To me the bottom of the lobe in the "left handed batter" original photo looks like the lobe attaches to the neck downwards versus the lobe in the known Wagner appears to turn back up to the ear canal. I hope I explained that well - essentially, to me, it looks like the lobes attached to the neck differently in these two pics.

Also, it appears that the ear is different above the ear canal in the two pics - left handed batter with skin flap and Wagner with no inner ear flap above his ear canal. This could definitely be a difference from the picture angles.

Thanks for the info.

Andy

Andy - I agree the earlobe issue as you explained it is a good point. With respect to the earlobe, you are saying that Wagner's earlobe appears to be somewhat detached, while the batter's earlobe appears to be attached. I looked at this photo a while back for someone and that is also how I originally saw it. However, the other similarities made me look at it more carefully.

Keep in mind that comparing ears when one is viewed from the back and the other is not is very difficult (and rarely comes up). For this one it's not only from behind, but also from considerably below. For the batter in this case it seems that the viewpoint is sufficiently behind and below such that the bottom of earlobe is almost pointing straight at the viewer. That, IMO for this unusual case, makes it very difficult to discern the angle at which the lobe joins the head. I believe that the batter's "fleshy blob" (red arrow) is the closet point to the viewer and that the angle at which the lobe joined the head can be the same for the person(s) in both photos.

As to the "skin flap", it's not clear to me what you mean there. If you can draw arrows over the photos, I'll try to answer.

bmarlowe1 · #5 08-08-2012, 02:51 PM

unintentional double post

mordecaibrown · #6 08-08-2012, 03:18 PM

Mark -

A picture is worth a 1000 words - no idea why I didnt do this in the first place. I made a circle in both pics to illustrate where I was discussing. To me in the known photo of Wagner there looks like there is no skin here - just open space; however, in the left handed batter it appears that skin folds down at this point.

You did understand my point correctly about the lobe. The various angles of these pics definitely make it tough to compare.

I also included another pic I had of Fred Clarke, I tried to blow it up. To me, his ear looks more similar to the left handed batter and the nose looks similar to the left handed batter.

Interesting discussion.

Andy

bmarlowe1 · #7 08-08-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

Mark -
To me in the known photo of Wagner there looks like there is no skin here - just open space; however, in the left handed batter it appears that skin folds down at this point......
I also included another pic I had of Fred Clarke, I tried to blow it up. To me, his ear looks more similar to the left handed batter and the nose looks similar to the left handed batter.
Andy

My response to the "open space" question is below. I used an image of Wagner where the ear details aren't lost in shadow.

You used the same pic of Clarke that I used (yours is colorized).

smokelessjoe · #8 08-08-2012, 04:54 PM

Mark,

Is there a way to measure the width of the sideburns or the distance from ear to sideburn etc. I know this would not be an exact science because people could trim how they want to etc.

Just curious if this is something you have ever done or is even worth trying?

The width of the sideburns matchup in some of the photos and different in others...

deebro041 · #9 08-08-2012, 03:20 PM

Initially i also thought they were two different earlobes. But if you look at the closeup of Wagner, he has somekind of tissue under his earlobe which could almost be similar to the questioned photo.

yanks12025 · #10 08-08-2012, 04:01 PM

never mind, I don't think we'll ever know 100%.

View Poll Results: Wagner or not the Wagner.. that is the question.
Yes, this is Honus Wagner	36	52.94%
No, it can't be Honus and I will list why I think so in the thread	32	47.06%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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